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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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 Posted Monday, January 4, 2010 @ 01:30 PM
Greetings and Happy New Year....
I have been thinking about how to recover the wings and I have talked at length with lots of "experts' including those at Poly Fiber and West Systems along with some folks who repair/ rebuild antique aircraft. The nice thing about voice over Internet is that you can call anywhere and talk for as long as you wish. And, there are so many people willing to take their time and give suggestions/advice/concerns, etc. One of the major challenges we have with the RF-4 is that we have different surfaces, plywood and fabric. The Poly Fiber system works well on fabric but is not very hard for a solid wood surface and can scratch. But as we well know, everyone has their own perspectives on paint and coatings. Like all of you, I will just have to make the best choices I can with the information available. But please... don't be shy in giving me your advice.... even if I use another process, I very much appreciate your experience/ insights.
My goal right now it to build a major dolly that will allow me to work on the main wing, fiberglass the wood and cover the rest with fabric... and also transport the wing for painting since I can not paint it in my hanger. Additionally I want the ability to position the wing leading edge up, top side up and trailing edge up. The index head for the fuselage worked well and I hope a wing dolly will be as helpful. Anyway, I have started with making some basic patterns and trying to see what the wing will need. Like the paint, the fabric comes right off. Whatever was used to glue the fabric to the wing was not very good.
Here are 4 pictures in an album... the start of the wing process with many more to follow.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=PHOTO&id=5422924408363433250&aid=5422924400444907233&authkey=Gv1sRgCL7019DvwcxU&feat=email
Additionally I will try to give you an idea of how much fabric and materials are used. I believe the aircraft will be somewhat lighter with the new fabric.
Cheers,
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jb92563
Unregistered
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Posted Monday, January 4, 2010 @ 04:41 PM
My RF4D is completely covered in fabric so I'm not sure where there would be any wood showing on the exterior?
Are you not going to wrap the wing fabric around the leading edges?
On my wings the HIPEC system was installed and it is very scratch resistant.
I have been wanting on the wing root with all manner of sand, stones etc stuck to the soles of my shoes and I am quite amazed that there is not a scratch on this material.
It shows NO wear at all...hard to believe but I have been unable to scuff the surface or find any existing scuffs from hanger rash and what not.
Mine is done in a high gloss finish and looks brand new, even though it was applied 10+ years ago.
Apparently it is very good stuff and lasts eons apparently in cold, hot, wet,dry and high UV environments, and has a tough surface, immune to most solvents and chemicals, is flexible enough to not crack, and can be rejuvinated.
They have only recently received STC status, although they have been in business for quite some time, and so have not been widely used on certified aircraft, but I suspect that is going to change considerably in the future as the unbelievable performance of this system, and beautifull finishes start winning over the masses.
When I recover the fuselage, I will most likely use this system.
Definately worth a close look.
http://musclebiplane.org/htmlfile/hipec.html
http://www.falconaravia.com/
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Bob Grimstead
Unregistered
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Posted Monday, January 4, 2010 @ 11:09 PM
Hi Guys,
I'm not sure if I've said this before, but it's relevant, so I'll say it now.
The Polyfiber process (fabric & paint, devised by the great Ray Stitts, if you didn't know) is extremely durable and very, very flexible. I chose it for my Maule, after seeing an old Auster (Taylorcraft) which had this scheme applied 10 years earlier. My Maule has now had this fabric & paint on its tail for 11 years. The big test is: can you squeeze the two surfaces -- the upper and lower tail fabric surfaces -- together between your thumb & forefinger, and then let them go again and there is no stretching and no sign of a dent? It is really difficult to do because of the strength and elasticity of the Polyfiber fabric/paint combination, but I find it amazing that when you release your grip, there is no sign of cracking, ringworm, or any other permanent mark.
I cannot do this without damaging the finish on my Champ, which was only re-covered 5 years ago, but in Ceconite & butyrate dope.
Now, we all know that the paint on your unsupported fabric has to be flexible, but many folk think that you can put any hard, tough paint on the fuselage.
Not so! The paint on the fuselage of both my Fourniers is very badly cracked and crazed from the flexing of the fuselage, and Matthew's Fournier was the same before we fixed it. ALL the paint on a Fournier needs to be flexible! Just look at any film clip of the wing bending during flight, or observe any tree in the wind, and you will see that wood is very flexible, so its paint has to be very flexible too.
Just a thought for those of you who want to use two-pack polyurethane, fiberglass and the likes.
Yours, Bob
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Bob Grimstead
Unregistered
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Posted Monday, January 4, 2010 @ 11:12 PM
Oh, and Polyfiber (alone among the fabric/paint covering systems I believe) is fire-resistant. Another important factor to bear in mind when you're flying a wooden airplane with a leaky old VW motor.
Yours, Bob
and, no, I do not have any financial incentive in recommending Polyfiber. Wish I did!
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 @ 07:36 PM
I have removed most of the fabric from the left wing... looks like it was in an accident that took off the left wing tip from just outboard of the aileron controls... the spoiler control tube is somewhat rusted and I was wondering how you remove both the aileron tube control and the spoiler control tube?? I knew the former owner tried to land on a road after performing at an airshow... the engine did not restart with the hand pull (it was a larger engine from Charlie Webber... then he traded back to the original engine which is what I have)... and he was too low to do anything other than set it down and take out a pole with the wing tip.
Again, just wondering how you remove all the wing hardware (to fiberglass under the fittings) and remove the control tubes.... do you sand them and then use epoxy paint on the tubes and fitting... what finish seems to work best??
Thanks for the suggestions.. Robert (thought I would use my given name "Robert" and avoided any confusion with Bob Grimstead).
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Bob Grimstead
Unregistered
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Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 @ 09:12 PM
Hey Bob,
There's no confusion, our avatars ensure that.
Feel free to use whatever name you usually use, and please don't feel you have to change it on my account.
Yours, Bob
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Markku
Unregistered
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Posted Friday, January 15, 2010 @ 01:58 PM
| Quote: | | | Originally posted by Bob Brock
the spoiler control tube is somewhat rusted and I was wondering how you remove both the aileron tube control and the spoiler control tube??
seems to work best??).
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The spoiler control tube cannot be taken out without breaking some of the wooden structure, the tube is installed trough the opposite wing (holes in the ribs), anyhow the seat is blocking the line and an opening is needed to that plywood.
I dont thik that you need to remove this tube, just clean it and remove the rust and grease it with lanolin (as it is done in the factory, lanolin does not damage the wood structure).
Aileron control tube need also a opening to bottom middle plywood (opposite corner) if you want to take it away.
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Jorgen
Unregistered
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Posted Friday, January 15, 2010 @ 06:27 PM
Thanks Markku,
good information, we all benefit from the fact that you have your wing open for reference. Or maybe you knew that one by heart- are you getting closer to covering?
May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Monday, January 18, 2010 @ 06:42 PM
Hi Makku;
Often I have suspected the aircraft was built around a part that I wanted to remove but typically there is a way. My 1946 Cessna 140 had brakes only on the left side with just rudder pedals on the right, but I wanted brakes on both sides so I could let my daughter (she is just turning 15) fly from the left seat... what a job... it is like removing the wings from the RF-4 with impossible positions. It took me five days but along the way I had to build some of the parts.
Again, I removed the fabric on the RF-4 left wing and wondered how on earth they got the control tubes in the wings... now I know. Thanks!! I will take your advice and refinish them in position while removing the brackets to fiberglass underneath if I can. Now that I can move the Cessna out of the hanger, I can access the RF-4 wings so hopefully I will have some pictures in a week or two. Seriously, I would not even attempt to do some of these things without the assistance of all of you. I know I am way over my head. Thanks again.
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Tuesday, January 19, 2010 @ 08:12 PM
Greetings:
Today I removed all the fabric from the Right Wing and was careful to roll the strips of removed fabric into one bundle. I took care to make sure it was as exact as I could make it.... one half of the total main wing, right on the center line. Anyway, aside from some paint flakes at cut lines, I think the bundle is very accurate to include 1/2 of the main wing fabric, paint, primer and even some of the glue. It was really surprising how quickly the entire fabric came off. The total weight for this FAA ceconite (103) fabric/ paint, etc., for the main wing (less the aileron fabric) was: 6.127 lbs.
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Wednesday, April 14, 2010 @ 09:01 PM
Greetings:
Ok, it took much longer to build and I had to wait for some good weather, but the wing is on the Dolly... it turned out much better than I thought because I got lucky and the pivot point was almost at the exact balance of the wing... again, just luck.
Anyway, I can now move the wing in and out of my hanger for repairs, fiberglass, fabric work, paint, etc. Basically I will do much the same type of work as done on the fuselage.... and later put it on a trailer for transport to the paint shop, etc., and position the wing for better access.
Here is a link for some pictures... the dolly base is big but is very stable.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=PHOTO&id=5460151008539330466&aid=5460150995798599921&authkey=Gv1sRgCIO3htK-woW0ag&feat=email
Bob
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jb92563
Unregistered
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Posted Thursday, April 15, 2010 @ 10:26 AM
Nicely done Bob,
Looks like you might get the wing done in another month or two and may be ready to take to the air towards the end of summer?
I figure you are about a year away from the 2011 West Coast USA Fournier Fly-in so you should have plenty of time to get flying by then
and comfotable with the RF4D.
I will be taking mine to the Minden, NV Motorglider flyin June 25th this year. A good warmup for flying the mountanous areas again.
Since the trip last year it turned out to be no big deal as I learned how to use Flight Following on that trip and found the high airport and ground elevations (7,500 MSL was the highest ridge to clear) on the way to Minden via the Ownes Valley to be no big deal.
The scenery was spectacular and I will likely fly closer to the lee side of the Siera mountains this time so I can enjoy a better look.
I wonder how far along Dan Parks is with his project?
I'm hoping everyone gets time to finish their projects and wring out the bugs so that we get a good turnout of Fourniers at the flyin next year.
[Edit by jb92563 on Thursday, April 15, 2010 @ 10:29 AM]
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dannparks
Unregistered
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Posted Thursday, April 15, 2010 @ 02:33 PM
Nice wing dolly, Bob. Can I be first in line to borrow/rent it from you when you're finished? I should be ready for it in a few months.
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Friday, April 16, 2010 @ 05:47 PM
Greetings:
Seems the more I uncover, the more questions there are. Below is a link to more pictures of the wing and what needs to be repaired.. some great advice and suggestions from other owners.. thanks!! But of course I need more suggestions... I encourage you to let me know your ideas. Indeed, I plan to get lots more information and ideas from Eugenio in June... my wife and I are flying into Torino before joining the CFI world event in France then returning home via Paris after the celebration. I have no doubt I will carry home great ideas, friendships, memories and some metric stuff for the RF-4D.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=PHOTO&id=5460849291162225682&aid=5460849278522185809&authkey=Gv1sRgCNzF6936jtadtAE&feat=email
Like the fuselage, I am going to sand, repair, glue, varnish, fill, sand some more, replace broken or worn items and generally get the wing ready for covering with fiberglass just like the fuselage. Dann... you are more than welcome to use the dolly and if you like, you can come to the wing fiberglass session. My master fiberglass guys are willing to help once more... I just had to promise them they could take if for a flight when it was finished.
I removed the wing nav lights/ strobes and plan to build in LED wing tip position lights... more on that later.
By the way, does anyone know the finish layers on the wing... primer, some off white color paint (I didn't check yet but bet it is MEK based).
Lots to do.. at least now I can reach it and move the wing around. Cheers,
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joethepro
Unregistered
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Posted Thursday, May 13, 2010 @ 08:38 AM
i have a similar dolly and wheeled it out in a 8 mph wind turned to extract my r4d and it started rolling down the ramp chased it down and turned it parallel to the wind (with a great amount of effort) and pushed it back. now i'm careful to keep it sideways to the wind. it make a great sail. would you put a drawing with dimensions on the site so we can as my friend say reduplicate it. i have casters on all four corners to make it easier to put in tight spaces but it makes it harder in the wind thanks
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eugenio
Unregistered
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Posted Saturday, May 15, 2010 @ 03:08 PM
The glue is Aerodux, you can find it on Aircraft Spruce Catalog as Cascophen, is the same product (it is used by Apex for the DR400). Remember to do scarf joints as per AC 43-13.
If you want to reinforce the trailing edge you can recover it with a 150g fiberglass cloth after all repairs.
Eugenio
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Tuesday, May 18, 2010 @ 11:33 AM
Greetings:
A few members have asked about the construction of the Dolly (size, metal stock, etc.)... I just used scrap metal with a little trial and error building. No doubt others and do a better job, but below is an album that might allow you to benefit from some of my errors... I also have a way to flip it over so the top side of the wing is on top.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=ALBUM&id=5469047106978873121&authkey=Gv1sRgCPfh4Iexks3leA&feat=email
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dannparks
Unregistered
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Posted Wednesday, May 19, 2010 @ 03:40 PM
Bob, let me know when you plan to be working at Twin Oaks (especially wing fiberglassing) and I will try to fly over. Maybe the weather will cooperate this time. Here is my email, if you don't have it.
dparks(at)spiritone.com
Thanks,
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Wednesday, September 22, 2010 @ 08:49 PM
Greetings... sorry for not making any updates for the past few months but other stuff happened.. like painting the house. Anyway I am back working on RF-4 wing.
First, I was really optimistic about how much time it would take to remove the cotton fabric from the wing and to make repairs. Getting down to the factory wood is a big job... much like the fuselage (it might even be more difficult than the fuselage due to the leading edge curve) but I think the fabric is a bit thicker but on the flat surfaces it does peal with heat and work. Like an archeological dig, I uncover layer after layer... all the way back to the factory wood. It is really interesting how repairs were made on top of the cotton fabric/primer/paint... then covered up with the Dacron fabric. I have no doubt that Eugenio has the best wing system, especially after seeing and flying his baby. Even thought I sometimes wonder why I am going to all the trouble of getting down to factory wood, making the repairs, filling low spots or cuts, and covering the entire D box with West Epoxy fiber glass, it is clear with my aircraft had many questionable things done regarding repairs and coverings.
More later with some pictures, but hopefully it will be weeks rather than months.
Cheers,
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dannparks
Unregistered
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Posted Sunday, April 24, 2011 @ 11:52 AM
Hi Bob,
How are things going with your wing. Now that the weather is getting better, I'd be happy to fly over and help out with anything. I'm recovering my ailerons now, so I should be starting on my wing in the next few weeks.
Dann
dparks(at)spiritone.com
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Sunday, July 10, 2011 @ 09:07 PM
Hi Guys... back to the scrap yard for more steel and the Dolly 2. As I get ready to paint and cover with fabric along with some repairs to the wing, it became clear that I needed to have the wing lower and in a horizontal position, esp. for painting. One of the problems that I have is space... not enough. And I really like to move the wing outside for sanding. The other plus for me is that with a push of a button, the wing is moved to a safe position near the ceiling. Anyway, here are a few pictures of Dolly2.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=ALBUM&id=5627872817640594577&authkey=Gv1sRgCMCp6sPglZugdQ&feat=email
If you have any problems opening this album let me know... the settings were for anyone with the link.
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Bob Brock
Unregistered
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Posted Sunday, July 10, 2011 @ 09:14 PM
Greetings again.... not sure where to post this but it has to do with the trailing edge repairs. No doubt others have figured out how to make the trailing edge a bit stronger and how not to over tighten fabric (I will be doing fabric soon). I have seen this problem on some other 4's and believe the trailing edge could be a bit stronger, so since I have the wing apart, why not make a few additions? Also, when I find a neat new tool that actually works, it is fun to share. Rather than try to fix the existing trailing edge, I decided to remove all the bad parts and start over. Here is an album taken today.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=ALBUM&id=5627877870665239553&authkey=Gv1sRgCIGcqZDmnPfBoAE&feat=email
If anyone has any additional suggestions please let me know.
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Jorgen
Unregistered
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Posted Tuesday, July 12, 2011 @ 03:57 AM
Hi Bob,
thanks for sharing, very inspiring to see your work. I might be wrong and can't find any reference pictures right now, but isn't there supposed to be gussets somewhere at the ribtip too? Also, I'm not sure I understood how you modified the trailing edge, but since the trailing edge sits low when on the ground ventilation might need to be considered so you don't assemble moisture and get rot in there. There are a lot of ventilation holes in the fabric on the underside of the trailing edge on XST.
I like your dolly and inspired by your postings I built a similar supportdolly for the RF 5 b wing (but out of wood and fabric- eeh, an old mat to be specific), so please continue to keep us updated will you?
May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen
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