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Carburetor trouble-shooting and Fuel Flows (Zenith 28RXZ Car... printer friendly version
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Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 03:55 AM  

Hi Guys,

I think you all know both my RF4s have 1400cc motors with Zenith 28RXZ carburetors. Because of developing my inverted running mod among other things, I seem to have had more than my ‘fair’ share of carb related problems, so here is some info for others so cursed.

I have experienced the following symptoms:

If the engine starts and runs fine at idle, but will not give any power when you open the throttle even a little; it just coughs and splutters and strangles. That’s almost certainly a serious blockage in your main jet.

Turn off the fuel cock in the cockpit.
Remove the carb’s front cover / filter housing / plenum. That exposes your main jet, which is the brass thing with a screw head at bottom front right of the carb (bottom left as you are looking rearwards at it). Cut the locking wire (if fitted) and, holding a wide-topped glass container under it to catch the 20cc of fuel from the float bowl, unscrew the main jet.

Standard main jet size is 1.25 mm diameter, although many of them removed from our three carbs have turned out to be bigger than that in reality. So, gently insert the butt of a 1.25mm or smaller drill bit and see if something appears. If so, problem solved.

The next set of symptoms is that you can start, idle and taxi out, but when you open the throttle fully for take-off the engine immediately stutters and stumbles. That’s still a blocked main jet, but the blockage does not completely obstruct the jet. Procedure as before.

Next symptoms: you can start, idle, taxi out, and when you open the throttle fully for take-off the engine gives full power, but after two seconds (count them) the engine surges, farts, burps etc. If you throttle back to half throttle the engine seems to run fine at reduced power, but as soon as you open the taps again it falters.

That is not a main jet blockage, but a restriction of flow from the bottom of the float bowl into the main jet’s small chamber below it.

Initial procedure as before, but now you need to undo the two screws holding the float bowl to the top of the carburetor. You do NOT need to undo anything else, and you certainly do not need to remove the carb. Once you’ve undone those screws, you can lower the float bowl and look inside it. Remove the float, its pivot and the needle valve it operates and you should see the obstruction. If not, blow compressed air in through where the main jet screws in. Reassemble. Test fly. Job done.

Final symptoms: you start your take-off, but after five, ten or so seconds the power starts to fade, eventually with the engine stumbling as before. This is a restricted fuel flow into the carburetor float bowl, which holds 20cc – I thought I’d calculated that as theoretically enough for 13 seconds at full power, but now I can’t do the sum.

I hope that is of use to you all for further trouble-shooting.

Yours, Bob

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 04:03 AM  

Hello again,

If, like me yesterday, you are unable to find an obvious restriction in your carburetor, you might like to measure the fuel flows at various places throughout the system. To do this, I allow fuel to run through a big funnel into a clean, empty five-liter oil can (actually they’re plastic containers, not metal cans, but I don’t know what else to call them – the good thing is they have a transparent stripe, graduated in liters and half-liters). By timing the volume of fuel flowing in six minutes and multiplying by 10, I get the fuel flow in liters per hour (ditto by 20 for three minutes, 40 by 1.5 mins etc, for big flows).

I check the flow at aerobatic fuel level in the tank (15 liters) because that’s when I need optimum mixture for absolute maximum power. On my way to a display, when I have more fuel aboard, I don’t mind if it’s running a bit rich due to a higher fuel tank level. After the display’s over and I’m coasting home with a near-empty tank, I’ll be throttled back, so I don’t mind if it’s a bit weak.

Rectimo said the original 1200cc engine was supposed to burn 13.7 liters per hour at full throttle. By extrapolation, the 1400 should burn 15.98lph (say 16) and a 1750/1776 should burn 19.975 or 20.28 lph (say 20/21) at full throttle.
I do not remember the exact requirements, but I seem to remember that a gravity-fed fuel system should give at least three times an engine’s maximum need, so that’s 63 lph coming into the carb to cover all the above.

In preparation for the eventual fitting of my Aussie 1750cc engine, we did a fuel flow test at the banjo fitting into the carb. It passed two liters in 1 min 37 secs, which I make 74 liters per hour. More than enough for this new engine. I seem to remember that Matt’s WEK passed 90-odd liters per hour last December.

This is what I came up with (after everything was fixed) at various other points in the carburetor:

Flow out of the float bowl into the main jet socket should be 16 lph (I’ll have to open this up for the 1750 motor). Check this by removing the main jet & turning on the fuel. (This is where I only got 6 lph yesterday, pinpointing the problem)

Flow from the needle valve (standard orifice diameter is 2.00 mm, marked 200, but mine’s drilled out to 2.5mm for the 1400cc motor) with float and needle still fitted is 20 lph. You have to drop the float bowl for this one.

Flow from the brass needle valve jet with float and needle removed is 30 lph.

Flow from the needle valve jet socket, with float, needle and jet removed is 48 lph.

Don't smoke while doing this.

Good luck.

Yours, Bob

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 08:37 AM  

Hi again Guys,

Here's some more trouble-shooting advice from British Fournier expert, Dave Bland.

Hi Bob

With your spluttering, have you tried the obvious? Touch the exhaust pipes and see if one is cold (dead plug) then try again with a new plug fitted.

It sounds similar to a problem that I recently sorted. This guy’s carb had obviously been bugger'd about with by someone, as he too had thought it a fuel problem when it was in fact his HT leads and magneto.

If you have not tried it already, run the engine to the point that all the coughing and farting starts then simultaniously kill the mag and shut the fuel valve. Drop the float bowl and see what you find, if it is empty your engine is drawing more fuel than the inlet (‘needle’) valve can supply and you will need a bigger one or to adjust the float.

Someone had put a huge needle in this Stromberg CD150 carb, but left the standard 1.75 inlet valve and hence the float bowl was emptying through the proverbial 1" pipe while filling from a 1/2" pipe and surprise surprise it sucked more fuel into the engine than could get into the float bowl and at 2700rpm it coughed and farted.

Although I only found this after replacing the plug leads that were breaking down and the condenser in the mag which was also failing which caused similar symptoms but at 2000rpm.

As nothing had changed with the carb, I don't know why he spent 2 days messing up the carb and charging lots of money before suspecting the ignition.
However, you say that you have enlarged your main jet so I would suspect that you have upset your carb in a similar way, re my suggestion.

If you do find the float bowl dry I'm afraid I can't help as I don't know the standard Zenith 28RXZ carb.

If the float bowl is full and the filters etc are clean then it’s time to check the ignition, but be patient. Remove, clean, gap etc plugs and mark them 1234/ABCD whatever, and refit. Run up until missing occurs and let it fart for a minute or two, then shut down and go home. (If you take the plugs out hot you will bugger up the threads in the head.)

Next day remove the plugs and look for any that are unusually sooty and record the result, clean the plugs and refit them in different positions and repeat the procedure. If you find the plug in the same pot/s sooty suspect that lead of
breaking down under load.

Then the fun starts. You will have to take out the engine, and you may as well renew all the leads and get the mag overhauled while you’re at it. When were the leads last changed? While most people get mags overhauled they seem to
think leads last forever. No, they are consumable items and ought to be replaced every 500hrs / 5 years like spark plugs.

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 08:41 AM  

Hi Guys,

My only very small comment on what is otherwise a very sage fault-dignosis procedure, is that I was taught many years ago that you should always remove spark plugs from a hot engine, and replace them into a cold engine, because aluminium expands more than steel so when the engine is hot you can get them out more easily, and if you torque up spark plugs into a hot engine, when it all get hot you could crack a head.

Any comments?

Yours, Bob

eugenio
Unregistered

Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 02:29 PM  

Yes, never remove the plugs with the engine hot and always use copper paste on the threads or you will distroy the thread very quickly. And more, always use a torque wrench, don't do like those with the "torque arm", that way you have good chances your plug thread will last the whole engine life.
Note that copper paste is much better than Champion anti seize compound, because it remains soft.

Eugenio

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Saturday, January 30, 2010 @ 02:39 AM  

Hi Eugenio,

Thank you very much.
As usual, you are the fount of all Fournier wisdom.

For years I've been using Snap-On's Neva Seez compound for spark plugs, car wheel nuts, exhaust nuts etc, etc.
It's quite expensive, but I bought a can in about 1969 and it's now half empty, so I don't think I will ever have to buy another.
It looks like lots of tiny particles of different non-ferrous metals in some kind of paste.
It works well and does not harden with age, but don't get it on the spark plug electrodes or it will short them out.

Please can you tell me, what is the correct torque for Volkswagen spark plugs?

Yours, Bob

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Monday, February 1, 2010 @ 06:39 AM  

Aha, I've found it in an old Rectimo manual -- 2.0mkg or 14.5 ft lb

Bob

eugenio
Unregistered

Posted Thursday, February 4, 2010 @ 03:54 PM  

Usually we use to torque the plugs between 2,5 and 3.5 Kgm or 25 to 35 N. Too low torque can let the plug get loose. VW literature states 3.5 Kgm.

Eugenio

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