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Running rich printer friendly version
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Donald
Unregistered

Posted Sunday, August 30, 2009 @ 04:24 PM  

Thanks Bob but it's not any of these things. If it were running lean there would be many things to consider and check but running rich the list is quite short. Too much fuel or too little air, so partially closed choke, leaking needle valve, sunk float, blocked filter, blocked air bleed to emulsion tube have all been checked and I know the emulsion tube and the jets are secure.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's mogas. In particular I'm beginning to wonder if the specific gravity of modern mogas is significantly different from old mogas or avgas. Could it be lighter causing my float to ride lower thus raising the float chamber level? Coincidentally, one of my friends who is in a Jodel 1050 group has been complaining of rich running just recently and talks about how leaning the mixture has helped the situation. They run on mogas all the time. I don't have the luxury of a mixture control, though.

Anyway I am arranging to get new carb parts from Eugenio so I'll soon have some things to play with.

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Thursday, September 3, 2009 @ 07:17 AM  

Hello again Donald,

I think any tiny change in SG (if there is one) would not affect the simple Zenith carb.
I have run ours on both mogas alone, avgas alone and a combination of both, with no apparent change in richness -- although the plug and exhaust colours do change significantly between leaded and unleaded fuel.

I don't remember how you first ascertained you had a rich mixture?
Was it perhaps from black, sooty plugs?
You are probably already aware that this can also be caused by excessive oil burning, caused by worn piston rings or valve guides.

What is your fuel consumption?
Is it excessively high?
If not, you're probably not running over-rich.
We've been averaging slightly less than 10lph at 2800rpm and 103mph with the 1400cc motor and my coarse Aussie prop.
This drops to just under 7 lph at around 2400rpm and 85mph IAS for long-range cruise.
Both figures verified over around 12 hours each on a recent European tour.

Your rpm might not tie up with ours, but your cruise speed versus consumption ought to be within ten per cent.

If you're not burning too much fuel, then you're not running rich.

One final thing; after much experimentation with jet sizes to get the best possible power at 1,000 feet for low-level aerobatics, I am now running a main jet drilled out to 1.28mm. This was done very carefully with hand-held drill bits of gradually increasing size. We know the current diameter is 1.28mm, because the shank of a 1.29mm bit (which measures 1.28mm in a micrometer) just squeezes into the hole.
A wise VW expert told us that running a little over-rich has very little effect on power output, but running even very slightly over-weak will increase combustion chamber temperatures and rob your engine of power, so we're erring on the slightly ruich side.

Good luck with your trouble shooting.

Yours, Bob

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Thursday, September 3, 2009 @ 07:53 AM  

Thanks for your post, Bob.

How do I know I'm running rich? If I pull the plugs they are very sooty but as well as that when flying at full throttle I can see the exhaust. By that I mean I get what I can only liken to a sort of flickering shadow at the edge of my vision. I have seen that before when very high where the air is thinner but now I get it at moderate levels. At the same time the engine feels and sounds rough as if it's slightly misfiring. If I back off the throttle it all evens out.

Fuel consumption seems a little higher than before but I haven't had the opportunity lately to check it over a long trip, though I'd say it's not too different from yours.

Collin
Unregistered

Posted Friday, September 4, 2009 @ 00:48 AM  

Donald,

I you tried flying with the air filter removed?

Collin

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Friday, September 4, 2009 @ 08:26 AM  

All the time!
Donald
Unregistered

Posted Sunday, September 27, 2009 @ 08:50 AM  

I now have new main jets supplied by Eugenio. I have the carb on my bench at home and have the main jet in front of me with a set of small model maker drill bits to use their plain shanks as gauges.

According to the Zenith 28RXZ data sheet the main jet should be 1.25mm bore. I can insert the shank of the 1.4mm drill bit into the jet. I'd even say that it was a slightly loose fit but the shank of the 1.5 drill bit won't go. My digital caliper measures the actual diameter of the 1.4mm drill shank at 1.3mm so my main jet is slightly too big. 1.3mm bore is 8% larger in area than 1.25mm bore and with a loose fit mine may be 10 or 11% larger than it should be. Is that enough to make my engine run rich? Carburettors are subtle devices and I'd say probably yes. In any case I will test it with the new main jet(s) and see how I get on. I deliberately got a second jet undersize at 1mm bore to experiment with.

With the carb on the bench I have just measured the fuel level at 8mm down from the float chamber/carb body joint. Too high. Should be 9mm so that too will be contributing to my rich mixture.

I notice too that the new float chamber gasket from Eugenio is 0.5mm thicker than the existing one. That will compress some in use I daresay but again it's a small difference which, when I reassemble with the new gasket, will lower the float chamber relative to the carb body and the fuel level level relative to the emulsion tube, moving my mixture away from 'rich'. Maybe all these little influences have crept up on me unnoticed until now.

[Edit by Donald on Sunday, September 27, 2009 @ 10:43 AM]

[Edit by Donald on Sunday, September 27, 2009 @ 10:44 AM]

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Monday, September 28, 2009 @ 06:43 AM  

Hi Donald,

You won't want to hear this, but I don't think you've yet found the problem.

Are you running with 83mm cylinders, ie, do you have a 1400cc motor? If so, we have found that you will need a bigger main jet.

Like you, we measured a standard '1.25' main jet and found it to be oversize at 1.26mm or so.

We are currently running both WGN and HDO with main jet orifices measured at 1.28mm (the diameter of a 1.29mm bit) and they're both running at a perfect mixture -- and the fuel level in both float bowls is deliberately kept high, because I use that fuel for inverted flying and need as much as possible. Our float levels are around 5mm below the joint face.
I repeat, they're both showing a nice plug colour, and we burn 10 litres per hour cruising at 3100 rpm, 7 litres per hour at 2800 rpm, although that's with our coarse Australian propellers.

I have spoken at length to several VW experts (your nearest is John Maher at John Maher Racing in the Outer Hebrides). He says that the graph of mixture versus performance is steep on the lean side of the curve but very shallow on the rich side, so you can run quite rich without it affecting performance very much.

Plug colour does not denote mixture. It denotes combustion temperature. Usually 'cool' combustion (dark plugs) is a sign of richness, but it can also be caused by excess oil and several other things.

The ONLY way to discover whether your engine is running rich or weak is by checking your fuel consumption.

Fill your tank to the brim. Fly at a precise constant rpm for exactly two hours. Refuel. See how much fuel you uplift. Then compare your consumption to the book figures if you are running a 1200cc motor with a standard propeller, (or multiply the book figures by 14 and divide by 12 if you're running a 1400cc motor). Of course you will have calibrated your tacho first, because rev-counters are the second most unreliable gauge on the aeroplane.

Alternatively, you can run at full throttle for two hours. If you read the Rectimo manual graph, that gives full-throttle consumption (I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I think it was around 14lph for a 1200cc motor). That way you don't need to rely on your tacho.

For your engine to be so rich the plugs are black, it would need a main jet of around 1.3mm or 1.4mm diameter, and you would hear the motor going rumpty-rumpty-rumpty (like it does with the choke pulled out).

Try opening the throttle wide on the ground (with the brake on, of course) and turning off the fuel. Does the rpm increase just before your engine stops? If it does, the mixture's too weak. If it doesn't, then the mixture's OK.

If any of the above suggest your mixture's OK, you are probably burning oil (piston rings, valve guides etc).
That might cost you a whole £500 to fix -- not a problem.

Good luck.

Yours, Bob

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Monday, September 28, 2009 @ 08:33 AM  

Hi Bob, thanks for the input.

My motor is 1400cc, my main jet is larger than 1.3mm and it does go rumpty-rumpty-rumpty, like with the choke out, but only at full throttle. However you have given me more things to think about and to run tests on but I'll try with my new parts first.

I'm not aware of using more oil now than before. In fact she never seems to need topping up between oil changes.

I have heard of John Maher from the owner of a tipsy Nipper that shares my hangar. Perhaps a trip to the Outer Hebrides might be in order if all else fails.

Donald

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Monday, October 5, 2009 @ 11:32 AM  

Hello again Donald,

I guess what REALLY intrigues me is that you say this richness gradually developed.

It would take millions of hours for the main jet to open out through the flow of fuel, so I can only suspect that something became loose or wore.

If as you say the float level is correct and hasn't changed, I'm really stumped as to what might cause a gradual increase in fuel flow and richness.

My mind keeps floating back to your problem in odd moments, but I regret I really cannot come up with an answer. I would really be interested to know what you learn alnong your diagnostic way.

I brought HDO's carb over from Aussie with me this summer and have been running it on WGN. Swapped them back last week with no apparent cahnge whatever (two test flights, less than two hours apart), although WGN's carb has a 1.28 main jet orifice against's HDO's 1.29 measured main jet orifice.

All other components are exactly as found. I'm even re-using for the umpteenth time the original gaskets, although now I have a new set, I'll replace them at the next dismantling.

Do let us know how you get on, because presumably we'll all eventually have the same trouble.

Yours, Bob

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