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jb92563
Unregistered
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 Posted Thursday, September 17, 2009 @ 11:51 AM
In the US with an Experimental-Exhibition airworthyness, when the owner is changed through a sale, does the new owner have to apply for another Airworthyness certificate?
This seems different than the Experimental-Amatuer built category, which retains its airworthyness certificate through owner changes.
Ray
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SteveBeaver
Unregistered
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Posted Thursday, September 17, 2009 @ 12:18 PM
Although this varies somewhat from region to region, in general no, you do not need to apply for a new C of A. The rub is that the C of A is only valid when accompanied by a operating limitations dated "mm/dd/yyyy", a statement that should be found on the pink C of A.
These operating limitation will usually say that one way or another, you must inform the FSDO of any change to the base of operations of the aircraft. The FSDO will often then issue new operating limitations and in rare cases, they may issue a new C of A.
Typically, they will just ask you to provide a new "Annual schedule of events" and that is that. Sometimes though, they may feel that you ops limits are not up to their standards and may want to talk to you about new ones.
Feel free to contact me directly for specific help. I have issued many, many sets of ops limits and Cs of A for exhibition category aircraft.
The operating limitations are a critical part of the paperwork required for an experimental aircraft, and careful attention must be paid to these when buying or selling such an aircraft if you are to avoid owning a lawn ornament 
Steve
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jb92563
Unregistered
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Posted Thursday, September 17, 2009 @ 03:22 PM
That makes more sense to me as it follows what I know about Experimental -Amatuer Built.
I also wondered if there is an advantage to having Experimental-Exhibition/Racing rather than just Experimental-Exhibition
If you are already Experimental-Exhibition can you still add the /Racing afterwards by reapplying for a new Airworthyness Certificate?
Ray
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SteveBeaver
Unregistered
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Posted Thursday, September 17, 2009 @ 04:51 PM
If you HAVE to get a new C of A, request exhibition/racing. if not, let sleeping dogs lay.
The advantage of adding racing is that the FAA recognize that a glider is to some extent at the mercy of the winds and currents, and so placing geographical limitations on the machine may not be realistic. Gliding completions after all are often about "how far can you fly".
The racing bit means that IF you are taking part in a sanctioned event, any geographical limitation in you operating limitations do not apply.
Steve
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JamesB
Unregistered
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Posted Saturday, September 19, 2009 @ 10:11 AM
As Steve mentioned, take a look at your operating limitations as they vary from aircraft to aircraft.
A friend of mine has to file a list of all airports into which he anticipates flying. (As a result, he simply files a list of all airports in all states where he thinks he might fly. The FSDO doesn't seem to complain.)
My operating limitations on the RF5B only state that I cannot intentionally overfly congested areas unless I am arriving or departing from an airport. (Where I live, this is not an issue.) No other limitations or filing requirements apply.
If you have to change them, it might make a difference if you make sure they know this is a factory built, certificated aircraft in Europe that meets all handling, safety and noise requirements -- not an ex-military aircraft, etc. But as Steve noted, staying below the bureaucratic radar is usually the better part of valor and sanity.
[Edit by JamesB on Saturday, September 19, 2009 @ 10:12 AM]
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jb92563
Unregistered
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Posted Tuesday, May 11, 2010 @ 02:12 PM
Its come to my attention that my Special Airworthyness Certificate and my Operating Limitations dates don't match(Got lost some how), and I can not find the correct one. I have a Special Airworthyness Certificate from 1991 with unlimited expiry date and Operating Limitations from 1993.
I am not able to find the correct copy to match so I will likely need to file form 8130-6 to reapply for an airworthyness certificate.
They do not even have a record of any Special Airwothyness Certificates issued beyond 1988 in the FAA database, for my aircraft.
I was hoping I could just get a copy.
Are there any gotcha's or things I need to be aware of?
They will not require all the flight testing phases again will they?
The previous registration was Experimental - Exhibition.
Should/can I add the Air Racing?
comments, suggestions, advice?
[Edit by jb92563 on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 @ 02:20 PM]
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SteveBeaver
Unregistered
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Posted Tuesday, May 11, 2010 @ 02:27 PM
Your first move should be to contact your FSDO and explain that you have purchased/moved the aircraft and would like to obtain new operating limitations for it. They will advise you whether you need to apply for a new certificate of airworthiness or not. If you do need a new certificate (and I suspect you will), request experimental exhibition/racing. The racing thing is not a big deal, but it does provide certain freedoms when flying at SSA sanctioned events. - You probably won't be doing that, but the dispensation exists so why not use it? Apart from anything else, it will show the examiner that you have researched the matter and know your stuff.
It is very unlikely that you will be asked to do the flight testing thing again, but if you are, it will most likely be of short duration. Experimental exhibition guidelines do not specify 20/40 hours like experimental/amateur built. 2 or 5 hours is typical.
Unfortunately DER authority is now geographically limited, so I can't help you directly. I am happy to provide any advice on the subject though.
Steve
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jb92563
Unregistered
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Posted Wednesday, May 12, 2010 @ 10:34 AM
Thanks for the advice Steve.
It is funny though that when I talked to the local Riverside, CA FSDO and told them that I have moved an experimental-exhibition aircraft into their jurisdiction and wanted to update the Operating Limitations from the Scottsdale, AZ issue from 1993, he told me that he could not find any direction that required me to do that.
I thought I was off the hook and was going to get that in writing, but then he found that my Op Limitations date and my Special Airworthyness cert where not matching, and the FAA database had no record of it in any case.
He said that perhaps the designee did not follow 8130-2 and failed get the required paperwork to the FAA and suggested he may be able to ammend it.
I get the distinct impression that the FAA has lost a lot of records somehow. since the 93, 91 and 88 year special airworthyness info I got with the aircraft, was filed by different people and they could not all have simply "forgotten to send in the paperwork".
In any case I will just redo the Special C of A and Ops Limitations making sure it gets into the FAA database this time.
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jb92563
Unregistered
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Posted Monday, June 7, 2010 @ 04:15 PM
Last friday I met with the FAA rep from the local FSDO and he looked over my RF4D with my new C of A application in hand.
It all went well except we are still negotiating the Operating Limitations since he put one down that Prohibited doing any Aerobatics.
I think the standard clause about flght manuevers performed in the Flight Phase 1 and entered in the logbook, would be allowed in phase 2....will probably be the replacement.
However, since I don't see any manuevers documented in my log book, I assume I would have to go back to flight phase 1 for 5 hours and do these manuevers and log them.
I am not totally clear on how that is done.
It is my impression that I can simply do flight phase 1 testing and sign it off myself for these manuevers, and take it back to normal after 5 hours of phase 1?
I also think that my phase 1 test area has to be approved by the FSDO?
Is that just a letter to them asking permission for the phase 1 test area? or are there some forms for that?
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SteveBeaver
Unregistered
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Posted Tuesday, June 8, 2010 @ 07:41 AM
That piece is easy and you have taken the right route. You may re-enter phase one at any time you like simply by making a logbook entry and returning to the geographical area specified in your phase one section. Fly a loop, a roll, a spin and a hammer head and list them in the logbook as having been completed safely. Finally another line in the log book to return you to phase two operating limitations.
Since all the aerobatics you will fly in a Fournier are combinations or variations of those four figures, you are good to go.
Steve
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jb92563
Unregistered
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Posted Friday, June 11, 2010 @ 11:54 AM
Well, my new Special Airworthy certificate and Operating limitations should soon be on their way to me.
I worked with the Riverside, CA FSDO to reach a mutually agreeable set of Limitations.
They changed the initial "Aerobatics Phrohibited" to "Aerobatics permitted as described in the Operating Handbook"
And since all the other manuevers are variations and stringing together of the basisc manuevers in the Handbook, everything
an RF4D can do will be possible. (Except Flicks which the handbook specifically prohibits)
No test flying phase is required either.
I was glad to find in my research on dealing with the FAA that they are not allowed to arbitrarily change Operating Limitations without
justification or the owners consent, so it is really a negotiation if you ever get a new set written up.
Steves advice was also great in clearing up how to deal with things and get the most from your efforts.
I also added "Air Racing" to my former "Experimental - Exhibition" classification.
It was all done via email with the Local FSDO except for the visit to look at the airplane to verify its general condition and serial numbers.
It was all very painless and cost me nothing.
I am pleasantly surprised as you always hear that dealing with the FAA is a nightmare, but not in my case.
Thanks again for the support, it would be much more difficult and stressfull without it.
[Edit by jb92563 on Friday, June 11, 2010 @ 11:57 AM]
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