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Collin
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Posted Friday, February 9, 2007 @ 04:25 PM  

Hi,

There is a lot said about Auto gas, good and bad. I have been running a 50/50 mix of auto/100LL in my RF4 so far it has been running fine. I have read about auto gas vapor locking at altitude. Does but gravity feed systems vapor lock?

I am going to raise the compression to 8-1 when I install 83mm piston and cylinders. Any thoughts on 8-1 with 92 oct auto gas? or should I still mix.

--------------------
Collin Gyenes rebuilding RF4D, Flying RF5B

patrick
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Posted Friday, February 9, 2007 @ 07:06 PM  

Because of the big price difference between avgas and mogas in Germany and most of European countries we mostly fly with unleaded mogas = super car fuel, called "super plus 98 ROZ" .
Specific problems are unkwnow even with such engines ( Sauer ) with a C.R. reaching 9,5:1.
we fly regularly during the hot period up to 10.000 feet when going to Italy .. no vapor locke problem faced so far.
Since 1.1.07 Mogas must have - by law in Germany - 3 or 4 % bio-methanol and ratio will increase from year to year, also by regulations in orer to reduce the oil imports .
AeroEngine vendors say there will be no problem ... Wait ans see !
STC permitting the used of mogas in some lycomings like the O-360 says that only 1 % methanol is tolerated !!!
My opinion: nobody knows exactly and we have to test ouvelves !
Patrick

--------------------
Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Saturday, February 10, 2007 @ 10:25 AM  

Hi Guys,

For three years and 200+ hours I have been running my 40 year-old, 1,200-hour, 1,400cc RF4D's Rectimo on a mixture of mostly premium Mogas with around ten percent(ish) Avgas to supply a little lead in the fuel. It has a completely standard gravity-fed fuel system.

Our summer air temperatures here in Western Australia often exceed 40C, and I almost entirely fly full-throttle aerobatics. I have never had a problem with either pre-ignition or vapour-locking. Last month I flew a transit, a five-minute display and a full-throttle return transit to get home before dark, total 1:30, all in an air temperature of 41-42C (110F?). I have a good oil cooler, so although the oil temp was 110C throughout, the oil pressure stayed in the green. I had no fuel or power problems at all.

If you only use Mogas and get any water droplets in it, there is always the probability the fungal/bacterial growth claudisporum resinae will start to live on the fuel/water interface, where it thrives. This makes a woolly mess which can block filters and carburetor jets, and its waste products are acidic and eat into aluminum fuel tanks, carburetors etc. Lead kills it, which is why it is often a problem in jet fuels, but never in Avgas. That's another reason to add a little Avgas to your Fournier's fuel.

What a great little engine the Volkswagen is! Thank you Herr Doktor Porsche.

I hope that information is of use to you.

Yours, Bob

[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Saturday, February 10, 2007 @ 10:30 AM]

joethepro
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Posted Wednesday, February 14, 2007 @ 00:03 AM  

hi guys
joethepro
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Posted Wednesday, February 14, 2007 @ 00:17 AM  

hi guys pressed the wrong button i race shifter karts and use shell gas because it has no additives straight mogas we meter and water test and it alwas passes. Auto fuel alwas gets used so it is fresh, just don't get it while they are filling the main storage tanks. I am freinds with steve beaver (i don't know if that is a endorsement sorry steve) and had the great pleasure of meeting mira as i picked up 4076, n2185 and hope to have it flying in the spring. I will need lots of help and advice from all of you.
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Posted Thursday, February 15, 2007 @ 08:05 PM  

I used auto gas for years in my Fieseler Storch (Lyc 540), J3 Cub and Taylorcraft BC12D both with 65hp continentals. Usually it was a combination of auto gas and avgas. The problems I experienced were all related to the fuel system material issues and none with engine performance or operation. This was10 to15 years ago so I believe it was pre alcohol auto gas and may not be relevant today.

The J3 had a steel turnplate (leaded steel) fuel tank which within weeks of auto gas operation developed corrosion and considerable leaking which was solved at least temporarily by resoldering the tank seams and pin holes. It could have been an old problem waiting to happen or something was accelerated by the auto gas. This is a common J3 problem for the original steel tanks. The Taylorcraft had aluminum tanks and I never discovered any problems here.

Both the J3 and Taylorcraft used what appeared to be the original cork floats for fuel indication which came sealed with red shellac. The shellac dissolved and the corks disintegrated shortly after adding auto gas. New cork floats were sealed with Safety Poxy from Aircraft Spruce and performed fine. The material was applied by dipping and brushing, followed by a heat gun to expand trapped air and this cycle repeated several times to get the pin holes filled. I used copper plated steel welding rod for the wires and soldered on washers to secure the floats. Alcohol is not that friendly to most epoxies so I would run a test prior to operating on auto gas today. The seriousness of this is the decomposed cork does not float. I found the first evidence of this during an annual when debris was found in the gasolator. Removal of the still floating and non-floating particles in the fuel tank required some serious effort. When you drained the gas they stuck to the tank walls. They could cause a fuel restriction.

The Storch used the original aluminum floats. They are similar to the Cub floats but are inverted (The indicator sticks out the bottom of the wing like a Stearman). One of the floats corroded and I had to dry out the float and seal the pin hole with a small dab of epoxy

The last problem I had on all aircraft. The rubber components in the fuel systems failed by developing slow seeping of fuel at nearly all of the fittings using the old rubber seals particularly at all of the Curtis fuel drains. These were replaced with Nitrile O-rings and the leaking stopped at least while I owned them.

I may plan to use auto gas at times in my Fournier and plan to follow through with my own and others lessons learned.

Steve
RF4-D N505SE

JamesB
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Posted Sunday, February 25, 2007 @ 12:18 PM  

When we rebuilt my 1700E this last summer, we found that someone had previously reduced the engine from 1680cc to 1588cc (standard VW bug displacement). Since I have the 3 position Hoffmann prop that should have 1800cc engine, the reduced displacement seemed to account for my RF5B having minimal climb rates.

We used 90.5 Mahle pistons & cylinders to bring the engine to to 1776cc and an 8.5:1 compression. The engine builder (Jerry at Northwest Connecting Rod, Seattle; who is Extremely competent & races VW's) said it would run fine with unleaded premium. The only thing to avoid is the "winter blended" fuel with alcohol.

andy1
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Posted Wednesday, April 25, 2007 @ 09:39 AM  

Hello guys!

It's good to finally have found this great forum. I've been browsing the various CFI sites every now and then, but now noticed this. So, I had to join immediately

This auto gas thing has been an issue at our club here in Finland, too. As we will soon have the same problem with high Avgas prices as many other fellow aviators in Europe, we have been considering using mogas. Anyway, we are talking about a type certified airplane which has to be operated under approved flight manual and modifications are allowed only by approvals from the local CAA (talking about an RF4D/Rectimo 4AR1200). To Patrick's comment I have to say I believe it's the same in Germany too...

So, I have gone through the Finnish, German and English manuals and the only certification is for AVGAS. They say 80 octane, though. It is not available anymore, so 100LL has been used. But to legally fly a Fournier with automobile gasoline, it should be approved somewhere, preferably in some JAA-country. If the French manual doesn't differ from those mentioned, I believe It will be quite hard to get an official certification. I don't want to deal with the question after crashing the bird while using wrong fuel. Is the French manual downloadable somewhere?

So, any opinions? Is the use of automotive gasoline in RFs approved somewhere? If, by who? Is there any company still responsible for Rectimo engines? I believe an aircraft engine company named Rectimo still exists, but do they bear any responsibility fot those old conversions? I believe I even tried to reach them back in the 90's during an overhaul matter, but did not succeed.

If someone would be able to give a certificate (madness, we're talking about auto engine!), I could get a legal approval from the Finnish CAA and after that it would be easy at least in any JAA-country. Who who woud that somebody be? Actually, we can have automotive gasoline here with no added methanol.

-Antti-

PS. See you at GAP

[Edit by andy1 on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 @ 09:40 AM]

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, April 25, 2007 @ 10:06 AM  

Hello Antti, and welcome,

I got this from the British CAA web site:

As a result of legislation intended to protect the environment, the availability of leaded petrol in the UK reduced significantly during 1999, and the CAA received a number of enquiries concerning the possible use of unleaded petrol in UK-registered aircraft. Enquiries have also been received regarding the likely availability of an unleaded Aviation Gasoline, (unleaded Avgas). This website entry summarises the regulatory position on these issues as of 31st January 2001.

Contents:

AIRWORTHINESS AND ALTERNATIVE FUELS
THE USE OF UNLEADED MOTOR GASOLINE BY MICROLIGHT AEROPLANES
LIGHT AIRCRAFT APPROVED BY THE CAA TO USE UNLEADED MOTOR GASOLINE
OBTAINING APPROVAL FOR OTHER AIRCRAFT TYPES TO USE UNLEADED MOTOR GASOLINE
INFORMATION ON THE CONTINUED USE OF LEADED MOTOR GASOLINE IN CERTAIN LIGHT AIRCRAFT
THE CURRENT POSITION REGARDING THE FUTURE OF AVIATION GASOLINE (AVGAS)
A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE REGULATION OF THE USE OF MOTOR GASOLINES BY UK-REGISTERED AIRCRAFT.

Basically, most gravity-fed aircraft fuel systems in British light aircraft can use mogas, but with a couple of limitations. As I remember them, you must not fly too high (4,000 feet? 6,000 feet,? something like that) you must not allow the fuel temperature to get too hot (27C rings a bell) -- I don't think that will be a problem in Finland -- and you must enter in your aircraft's logbook that you are using motor fuel.

It is very easy, but since there is no specific certification for any particular type, it might not help you.

But I hope it does. The web site address is:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=224&pagetype=90&pageid=630

Good luck.

Yours, Bob

patrick
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Posted Wednesday, April 25, 2007 @ 05:02 PM  

A lot of stuff in these last messages !

1) ANTI / Finnland : i did not see you on the list of participants for the GAP event . I am indeed very happy to meet you there.

2) Use of Mogas in the Fourniers: I remember that our Britisch friends always said that the use of MOGAS in CAA registred RF`s is not allowed. PFA registred a/c can indeed use Mogas !
In France or Germany indeed all motorgliders with Rectimo / Limbach/Sauer or Rotax engines can and do use MOGAS.
But frankly speaking i have never seen where it is written that we can use Mogas in a Rectimo.
The flight manual only give specs about Octanes in the year 1963 ... = last century !
1963 Octanes grade have no meaning at all in the year 2007 !!!

I am not aware of any flight accident due to the use of Mogas ( but some due to empty tank !!!)

3) Fact is that in Germany (and in Europe) we will get BY LAW more and more alcool ( bio-methanol) in our Mogas.
Rotax, Limbach and Sauer all say there will be no problem.
My conviction is They dont know at all what will happen and the CAA authorities have also no idea what will be the consequences ... because they simply accept the statements of the engine manufacturers.

Rectimo: The company still exists but does not know anymore what a Rectimo AR 1200 is.
They prefer to deal with Lycoming O-540 engines or with PT 6 turbines.
Rectimo has no spare parts and cannot offer any support for a 50 years old 1200 VW engine, developped by Mr Ferninand Porsche for Mr. Adolf Hitler.
Patrick

--------------------
Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, April 25, 2007 @ 10:15 PM  

Hello again Antti, and thanks Patrick once more for all your information,

Several years ago, only PFA Permit to Fly aeroplanes in Britain were allowed to use mogas, but I THINK (not absolutely certain) that all aeroplanes with gravity feed fuel systems are now permitted to use mogas.

In Britain only 'super' unleaded mogas (high octane equivalent) is now available, but when two grades were available, it was recommended to use the higher grade, because it would have less alcohol in it. This is also true in Australia, where two grades of unleaded mogas are still available.

Good luck Antti.

Yours, Bob

[size=small][Edit by Bob Grimstead on [TIME]1177638552[/TIME]][/size]

andy1
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Posted Thursday, April 26, 2007 @ 08:39 AM  

Hello again,

I'm in a hurry (to fly ) , so only a very quick answer. Thanks for your comments. I will try to check the British comments and Bob's link later. I hope there would be some official acceptance, because it will be too hard to prove everything to the CAA.

Patrick: I actually did e-mail Michel only yesterday, but he confirmed the registration is OK. So, Gap - here we come! I'm very much looking forward to meeting all the RF-people. And, btw, our beutiful old lady, the RF4D OH-370 is flying again!

BBL

-Antti-

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Posted Thursday, April 26, 2007 @ 11:53 AM  

Hello Antti,

Go to here OH-370 is flying again. Please send some pictures.

I have been running a mix of Auto and Avgas in my RF4. My friend John (N7725) has ran Auto gas in his RF4 for years now.

--------------------
Collin Gyenes rebuilding RF4D, Flying RF5B

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Posted Thursday, April 26, 2007 @ 09:56 PM  

Yes Antti,

Like Collin, I use a mixture of auto and avgas in my hard-worked little Rectimo. A little lead in the fuel should help with valve lubrication, and maybe help prevent detonation.

I use roughly one part of avgas to ten parts of mogas, but I do not measure it too carefully, and sometimes only add mogas or only avgas. She seems to run just as well, whatever the proportions.

See you at Gap.

Yours, Bob

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Posted Friday, April 27, 2007 @ 05:11 AM  

Okay, thanks again. I have been reading some stuff and found something interesting. I have to go it through and see if I can find something. I will report if it's a breakthrough

To Collin's request: I'll add a few fresh photos taken a couple of weeks ago during the first runup after winter. Still waiting to get some flying pics or even air-to-air ones. Enjoy (Perhaps there shoud be a photo section in the forum? )

PS. The paint scheme is not a German flag. One of the stripes is brown, not black!

[Edit by andy1 on Friday, April 27, 2007 @ 05:13 AM]

andy1
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Posted Monday, June 18, 2007 @ 05:42 PM  

Hello again,

As I looked at the photos I sent earlier, I have to mention that I made those beautiful exhaust pipes out of some DC-10 hydraulic lines

But back to the mogas. I finally found a good document by UK CAA:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AN98.pdf

There is a list of approved aircraft types for use of mogas - by a JAA (or EASA or whatever...) CAA! I sent that one, with some other supporting material (mostly consisting of product information considering mogas-types sold here in Finland) and a kind letter to the Finnish CAA. I still haven't gotten the documents, but was promised on the phone that I will get a positive answer! That will only need some minor revisions to the operating manual and operating according to the mentioned British document. So, we are on the bright side here. And when it's okay in UK and Finland, it should be okay in any other JAA (or EASA or whatever) country. Great!

-Antti-

[Edit by andy1 on Monday, June 18, 2007 @ 05:43 PM]

--------------------
***** Antti Laukkanen, Helsinki, Finland - RF4D OH-371 - RF4D OH-370 - RF5 OH-386 *****

andy1
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Posted Tuesday, December 11, 2007 @ 05:35 AM  

Hi guys,

It took some time, but I have finally received certificates to use auto gasoline in RF4Ds OH-370 and OH-371 from the Finnish CAA. They are based on the UK regulations, discussions with German CAA (which granted the type certificate) and Rectimo engine manual (downloadable in German CFI Site). The engine manual does not state that the fuel should be aviation grade. It shall be carried as a Flight Manual appendix.

I believe that as JAA/EASA/whatever authority the Finnish CAA granted papers have some power as refererence if someone wants to battle with their own CAA.

That was very good news just after the most stupid new tax law raises the price of aviation gasoline here in Finland to stratosphere.

-A-

--------------------
***** Antti Laukkanen, Helsinki, Finland - RF4D OH-371 - RF4D OH-370 - RF5 OH-386 *****

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Posted Tuesday, December 11, 2007 @ 06:43 PM  

Hi Antti,

Does your auto gas have any alcohol? Here in Oregon we are 10%.

Current avgas 100LL is $4.30 a gallon

Auto 87oct $3.00

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Posted Wednesday, December 12, 2007 @ 09:00 AM  

Hi,

No alcohol at the moment, or very very little at maximum.

The cost of 95 oct autogas is round 1,30/l (not gallon ), 98 is a few cents more expensive, 100LL is round 1,70 at the moment, but will be over two euros per liter next year! It's not the greatest problem with an RF4D, but just got the new prices from one of our clubs. Beech Debonair will be some 34 more expensive to fly per hour than this year... Not fun.

-A-

--------------------
***** Antti Laukkanen, Helsinki, Finland - RF4D OH-371 - RF4D OH-370 - RF5 OH-386 *****

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Posted Saturday, August 2, 2008 @ 12:33 PM  

Hello,

I have been running 91oct auto fuel with and without alcohol most of the year so far the engine is running great.

Here is a link to a UK document on use of Auto fuel.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AN98.pdf

Carl G
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Posted Tuesday, April 18, 2017 @ 11:32 AM  

Any updates/long-term problems on the use of auto gas with alcohol, perhaps mixed with avgas? I'm still getting conflicting advice on this issue.

I have no fuel availability at all at the field where I keep my RF5B, but I can get 10% alcohol/91 octane about five miles down the road. I have managed to get a couple of jerrycans of 100LL from a specialty fuel supplier about 30 miles away (at $7 per gallon!!). Assuming Bob G. has had no long-term issues, I will try his 10-to-1 mixture technique...

Carl

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Posted Tuesday, April 18, 2017 @ 12:12 PM    YIM

I run auto fuel exclusively with varying amounts of ethanol depending on the seasons. No problems to report.
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Posted Tuesday, April 18, 2017 @ 12:44 PM  

Interesting. Do you drain the system in winter? One of the issues I've heard about is acoholized fuel gunking up the carb and filters are sitting for a while.

Carl

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Posted Wednesday, April 19, 2017 @ 06:57 AM    YIM

I do not. Haven't observed any "gunk"
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Posted Sunday, April 30, 2017 @ 10:47 AM  

Hi Guys,

I have two RF4Ds. Both their engines have 8.2:1 compression ratios.
I have run them both on a mixture of 100LL Avgas and Mogas or auto fuel of whatever RON I can get.
I have no idea of the alcohol contents.
I use a minimum of 20:1 Mogas to Avgas, and usually around 5:1 but often up to 100 per cent Avgas.
Occasionally I can only get mogas, in which case I use the highest available RON (octane).
Between the two airplanes I have amassed more than 780 flying hours.
I have never had any problems with vapor locking or carburettor icing.
I do drain out all the fuel in the winter.
I also remove the carburettor and spray it all over with carburettor cleaner, but I have never found any evidence of 'varnish', 'sludge', 'gunk' or anything else contaminating the carburettor.

I hope that helps.

Yours, Bob

--------------------

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Posted Sunday, April 30, 2017 @ 12:06 PM  

Thanks Steve, Bob

Your experiences are most reassuring, and getting mogas will be very much easier for me (not to mention cheaper).

Thanks again,
Carl

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