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Mikuni outboard motor carb printer friendly version
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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Saturday, January 10, 2009 @ 02:51 AM  

Hi Again Sam,

You mentioned you use a Mikuni carb on your Fournier.

Could you tell us what model number or venturi size that is, and maybe what jets etc you are using?

I had been recommended to use a Stromberg CD150 carb on my new, 1,750cc motor, but it hangs too low down below the engine and I would have to cut a hole in the lower cowling, which I don't want to do.
Original Zenith carb:

Stromberg carb:

I thought that maybe the Mikuni would be neater.

Yours, Bob

Sam M.
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Posted Friday, January 16, 2009 @ 02:07 AM  

Hey Bob,

I will ask my dad about it and get back to you.

Sam M.
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Posted Sunday, January 25, 2009 @ 06:11 AM  

My Uncle Who Rebuilt the engine anf helped alot with the restoration sent me This, Thanks Jon!

Note: If you use any of this information, please do it at your own risk, this stuff can be deadly.

The carburetor we used on our RF4D with a converted 1200cc to 1400cc engine is a mikuni carburetor model B32-28 from off a 1977 to 1984 Suzuki outboard marine engine model DT115. This engine has four (4) of these carburetors. We bought a set of four (4) on a manifold from EBay for $80.00 dollars US.

Note: the Suzuki DT 140 uses a larger carburetor model B40-32 this has a 32mm venturi.

Mounting the carburetor

The carburetor venturi size is 28mm and outlet bore on the carburetor is 32.65mm and mounting holes are 58mm center to center. So we took the original cast aluminum intake manifold, removed the studs, drilled out the threaded holes bigger and welded them up and refaced the mateing Surface. Then we bored out the intake manifold to match that of the carburetor of 32.65mm and dressed it up with a drimal tool to smooth it out. Then re-drilled and tap the stud holes for the original studs. We also drilled a hole and tap it in the center of the manifold opposite of the carburetor and angled upward for a primmer. Also we welded a tab to the manifold, for the attachment of a spring, to open the throttle should the throttle cable fail.
We manufactured a new throttle arm with an idle adjustment on the lower end of the arm that makes contact with the micro switch and throttle cable attaches on the upper end. We manufactured a bracket for the mounting of the gear warning micro switch, to the carburetor.

Mod’s to the carburetor

This carburetor was meant to run with a fuel pump, so to make it work for us we had to make the following changes so the float would get more than enough fuel to keep things running. Because of the RF4 gravity feed and low head pressure to the carburetor, with low fuel in the tank and possible nose high attitude, we made the following changes. Disassembled carburetor Remove stock plastic fuel inlet fitting from the carburetor (it’s just pressed in; use a vise clamped on the plastic fitting and twist and pull hard on the carburetor and then on the brass insert). Drilled the fuel inlet passage out larger starting with a letter F drill bit and stepping up to G to H to I drill out only to smaller fuel passage step down and tap with an M8X1.25 bottoming tap for the fuel inlet adapter fitting. Also drill out the float needle valve seat with a #37 drill bit. Drill from the upper side down of the seat be careful not to damage the remaining seat face. Also grind off the tip of needle valve again be very careful not to damage the part that mates up with the seat. The needle will now sit farther into the seat, to help with the adjustment of the float level, shim seat by using two gaskets under the seat when you install the valve seat back into the body.

We removed the choke shaft and butterfly and made plugs with shoulders that insert from the outside of the carburetor in. We decided to go with a Rotax fuel primer instead of a choke. With a primer you can keep an engine running, if you should have a carburetor fuel blockage problem. But to each their own on this one.

When this carburetor is mounted on the outboard engine the idle is set at the factory by a sized hole in the butterfly valve plate, this hole is way too big for the VW engine and it idles way too fast. To fix this we removed the butterfly valve plate made a small plug of brass that is slightly thicker than the butterfly plate. We cut one from a large brass washer; we then chamfer the hole in the butterfly plate, on both sides, and put the snug fitting plug in the hole. Stake the plug with a center punch at muttiple locations all around the edges, on both sides over the chamfer in the throttle plate then solder the plug on both sides, then clean up the part and reinstall plate. Install screws with green locktite also re-peen end of screws. The idle adjustment will now be made with the adjustment screw on the lower side of the throttle arm.
We had to drill out and open up our main jet for a richer fuel mixture at high rpm on our engine, we drill it out with a #51 (.067) drill bit and the air bleed jet soldered up and drilled to a smaller size. We drill this with a # 70 (.028) drill bit, to get idle / mid range mixture adjustment in range. Also the idle mixture screw is above the inlet on the inlet side of the carburetor. Be very careful when making this adjustment, as to not get into the propeller, as it is very close to the propeller.

The air filter is a small one from autozone with an adapter plate riveted to it.

We have about 70 hours on this carburetor now and it’s been working great.

Note: remember to check your spark plugs and make sure you engine is not running to lean.

Note: If you use any of this information, please do it at your own risk, this stuff can be deadly.

[Edit by Sam M. on Sunday, January 25, 2009 @ 06:14 AM]

Sam M.
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Posted Sunday, January 25, 2009 @ 06:13 AM  





Bob Grimstead
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Posted Sunday, January 25, 2009 @ 07:34 AM  

Hi Sam,

Thank you for all this information, and please also thank your uncle Jon from me.

You say you bought four of these carbs. Is there any chance you uncle Jon could be persuaded to make all these mods on another of your Mikuni carbs and sell it to me?

I will say here in public that I accept all responsibility for using such a carb, and I and my heirs and successors would never under any circumstances try to seek any compensation form anybody who helped me in this way. I deplore such behaviour, and so very much wish it was not a component of modern life.

I would be really grateful if you and your uncle could hlep me, because it is clear that I need such a carburettor to run my new 1750cc Fournier engine. The original Zenith is too small and simple and old, while the Stromberg I have been recommended is far too big for the application.

Yours, Bob

Sam M.
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Posted Sunday, January 25, 2009 @ 02:51 PM  

Ill Talk to him today and get back to you
Sam M.
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Posted Sunday, January 25, 2009 @ 10:01 PM  

I asked him today, he said he will think about it.

[Edit by Sam M. on Sunday, January 25, 2009 @ 10:02 PM]

Jorgen
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Posted Monday, January 26, 2009 @ 05:18 PM  

Hi Sam,
could you convey my respect to uncle Jon? In his writing, it sounds awfully simple to just sort of casually redesigning a carb from an outboard engine to a Fournier, but I think that´s quite a feat! For example the throttle linkage with that spring to give full throttle if the cable breaks- and also to offload the cable so it doesn´t break that easily is a clear improvment over the standard Zenith carb. Thanks for sharing.

Take 5(b) just 4 fun/ Jörgen

eugenio
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Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 @ 06:23 PM  

A sidedraft carburetor used successfully on VW conversion is the weber 32OF used on the Fiat 238 van. It is flat and can be installed like the others without modifying the cowling. We have one installed on the VW 1835 I prepared for the Corby Starlet sitting in our hangar.

cheers

Eugenio

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Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 @ 12:04 PM  

I have Dual Stromberg CD 150's on my Limbach(VW) 2000cc engine.

They are altitude compensating. When you reach ~5k they switch to a leaner setting.

I did not notice that effect but when I looked in the oil reservior in the carb I noticed it was empty so they need to be topped up.

The carb oil reservoir is top vented so inverted or negative G might slowly drain the oil and needs to be put on the daily checklist for topping up.

Seems they work fine without oil as well though, just no Lean functionality when dry.

Ray

[Edit by jb92563 on Friday, January 30, 2009 @ 12:04 PM]

eugenio
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Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 @ 03:13 PM  

The oil in the carb is only for dampening the movement of the piston, it works the same without it. Dampening is just to slow down the piston up and down movement, otherwise it will lean or flood the engine too quickly. The carb compensates because feel outside pressure changes. The butterfly valve regulate the air flow, and from the air passages the membrane feel the difference from low manifold pressure and outside pressure thus sucking up the piston that has fitted the needle regulating the fuel passage. With the same setting of the throttle, when you get higher the difference between the two pressures is lower, so the piston get slightly down reducing fuel passage and leaning the mixture.
Easy and effective. The same system is used by Bing carburetors (used on Rotax, Sauer and BMW motorcicles (old models, now they are fuel injected).
Nice machine the G109, better glider than the Fourniers, but heavy, like all those fiberglass birds.

cheers

Eugenio

Sam M.
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Posted Monday, February 2, 2009 @ 02:01 AM  

Jon said he will build the carb,

he wants to know if you want the choke,micro switch and airfilter as well?

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Posted Monday, February 2, 2009 @ 08:42 AM    YIM

Bob,

Will the 28 mm Mikuni be sufficient for you 1700 CC engine?

Steve

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Posted Monday, February 2, 2009 @ 11:11 PM  

Hi Steve,

Sam says the carb has a 32mm bore with a 28mm venturi, when the original 1200cc Recimo had a 28mm bore with a 22mm venturi.

So that Mikuni sounds about right for my 1750cc motor.

By calculation, the intake area of a 28mm bore is 615 sq mm, while of a 32mm bore it is 804 sq mm, a thirty per cent improvement, which should be about right for the planned 25 per cent capacity increase from 1400cc to 1750.

Doesn't that seem sensible?

I was originally recommended to use a 32mm bore Stromberg on the 32mm intakes for my 1700cc motor, but it's too tall to fit within the cowlings, so this Mikuni would be preferable.

Yes please, Sam, would you ask your uncle to go ahead and build the carb.

I think I would prefer the original choke to using a primer (it's a glider, after all) but I would like the micro switch and air filter please.

Also, because my 'new' 1750 motor has a fuel pump, he could probably leave the needle valve and seat as they originally were in the fuel pump-supplied outboard application.

I take full responsibility for using this carburetor on my engine, and of course I shall do plenty of ground running and testing before attempting to fly with it.

If you let me know the cost of the carb plus all your uncle's work on it plus packing and postage, also his name and address, I'll mail a check this week.

Please thank your uncle Jon very much from me.

Yours, Bob

[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Monday, February 2, 2009 @ 11:40 PM]

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Posted Tuesday, February 3, 2009 @ 09:45 AM    YIM

Could be. It may be just right for your engine and a little generous for Sam, but I don't suppose that matters in the least.

During a conversation with Ben Elison once, he told me that the size of a carburetor is not actually linked to the airflow, so much as to the power required. At the time I had a 150 HP Walter engine of 4 litres or so, and a Spanish Tigre of 150 HP but more than 7 litres. I called Ben to see which carbs to buy and he explained they are both 150 HP so same carb for each. Interesting tidbit. - The Tigre operates at a lower rpm, but not by that much.

Steve

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Tuesday, February 3, 2009 @ 08:33 PM  

Hi Steve,

Thanks for that tidbit. Very interesting.

I guess I am basically going by the inlets into the heads and/or the inlet manifolds.

The Rectimo 1200 has 28mm head inlets and manifold, so that's easy.

The dual-port heads on my 1750 are 32mm, and so is the inlet manifold made up by my local VW expert.
That seems about right, and tallies with the 1600 Ardem motor I had on my old Turbulent, which had single-port heads with 32mm inlets.

When I originally bought it, it had the early standard 28mm inlet manifold, but a 32dfm carburetor.
It was very prone to carburetor icing.

I made up a 32mm inlet manifold and at a stroke got rid of the icing and increased performance.

It could be that a carb with a wider choke might be better suited to my 1750 motor, but I reckon this one will be OK (as the 28mm one still is with the 1400 motor) and it's nice and compact. My only conccern is with that the high mass flow and increased depression there might be a greater tendency to carb icing, but we have pretty hot, dry air here in Australia in the summers, and I don't fly much in the winter, because I go to England, so I think I shall sidestep that problem.

Thank you very much for voicing your concern Steve, and even more for your advice.
Of course, I shall let everybody know how things go -- good or bad.

Yours, Bob

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Posted Wednesday, February 4, 2009 @ 01:32 AM  

Eugenio,

Thanks for describing how the Stromberg works, I did not know that the leaning was proportional, I thought there were just two settings for normal or lean.

Do you know what kind of oil I should put in it?

I think the manual said "Stromberg Oil" which is of no use since I have no clue where to get that oil.

I think some are using regular motor oil.

Ray

[Edit by jb92563 on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 @ 01:35 AM]

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Posted Wednesday, February 4, 2009 @ 09:08 AM    YIM

Bob - I have no particular experience or advice to offer on carbs, but it seems like the approach you are taking is very sensible. I'm looking forward to hearing how your RF4 flies with the new engine.

It crossed my mind recently that I should persuade Joe Foley, who has a second RF4 airframe that has been ravaged by insects, to rebuild it as an RF7 with the same engine as you. Since one of the two RF7s is usually listed as having been homebuilt, I wonder if any engineering information is available?

Steve

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Posted Wednesday, February 4, 2009 @ 02:03 PM  

Hi Steve,

Here is a link to RF7 Flight manual. Yesterday My Dad and I bought a RF5B in PA. When I fly it back I will try to stop by.

Collin

http://www.cfiamerica.com/images/pdf/RF7_Flight%20Manual.pdf

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Posted Wednesday, February 4, 2009 @ 04:31 PM    YIM

Interesting stuff! Thanks Colin. Joe and I hang out at KDLZ on the North side of Columbus. I also have a hangar at KTZR on he South East side.

Steve

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, February 4, 2009 @ 08:27 PM  

Aha!

The RF7!

New topic -- new post.

Yours, Bob

Sam M.
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Posted Monday, March 9, 2009 @ 02:04 AM  

Carb update

it should be done next week, the price is $150,
but he doesn't want you to pay untill you have tested it, and it works.

[Edit by Sam M. on Monday, March 9, 2009 @ 02:05 AM]

eugenio
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Posted Monday, March 9, 2009 @ 03:22 PM  

Answering to the 150CD3 question: The manual talk about "Zenith lube", well this is just an hydraulic fluid like the one used on power steering in cars (the red one) or the fluid used for hydraulic pistons (the clear pale one). Take care not to use dot3/4 brake fluid as it will damage the rubber membrane.

If anyone wish to have suggestion on any topic, I can also answer on our own website www.avag.it

ciao

Eugenio

Sam M.
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Posted Sunday, March 15, 2009 @ 11:13 PM  

hey Bob,

Carb is done, Whats your address?

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Monday, March 23, 2009 @ 09:14 AM  

Hi Sam,

Sorry for the slow reply. With Matthew Hill, I'm working on our British Fournier in the wilds of central England. Living in a tiny, cold old trailer on a rural glider site with no e-mail access.

My address is:
277 Riverton Drive
Shelley
6148
Western Australia

Please thank your uncle Jon very much from me.

I hope to be back in Australia at about the time the carb should arrive. (I have to go to Brazil first, to fly a new exec jet). From there I shall send Jon a $US check, with many thanks. I don't have that check book with me in England, or I would do it now. Let me know the cost of postage/shipping, and I'll add that to my check.

Thank you again.
I can't wait to get that Mikuni on to my motor and see it running.

Yours, Bob

[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Monday, March 23, 2009 @ 09:31 AM]

Sam M.
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Posted Monday, March 23, 2009 @ 01:05 PM  

Jon says to test the carb first and make sure it works before you send a check.
Sam M.
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Posted Sunday, March 29, 2009 @ 09:58 PM  

it shipped a few days ago, Shipping was $120 eeek!

[Edit by Sam M. on Sunday, March 29, 2009 @ 09:59 PM]

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, April 1, 2009 @ 06:48 PM  

Hi again Sam,

Thanks very much, it arrived today. So bright and shiny, it was a great welcome-home present!

I'll mail your uncle Jon a check immediately, because I'm not quite sure when I'll have time to fit it.
I need to reassemble the blue Fournier to check out all our recent work, then there's a display, then I have to strip the fabric off our Maule for my buddy to re-cover it while we're away, and then I leave for a Northern Hemisphere summer of air shows (I hope).

I have to do all of that (plus write a couple more articles, of course) in the next four weeks, so I reckon that carb's gonna have to wait till I get back here in October.

Many thanks to Jon and yourself.

Yours, Bob

Sam M.
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Posted Wednesday, April 1, 2009 @ 11:29 PM  

Sounds good Bob,
Are you going to try it on your 1400cc thats on there now? it would be interesting to see if theres a performance change.
Bob Grimstead
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Posted Thursday, April 2, 2009 @ 03:17 AM  

Hi Sam,

Yers, I was wondering whether to do that first, before bolting it to the 1750 motor, but there would be a little work needed on the intake casting, and I think it needs a fuel pump, so that will have to wait until October.

But maybe it will be quicker in the long run just to fit the new motor.

Don't quite know yet.

Yours, Bob

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