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dannparks
Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Parkside Airpark, Battle Ground, WA
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
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Posted Thursday, May 28, 2009 @ 10:43 AM
For those with RF4's that have installed a starter/generator, and a battery behind the seat, how have you run the 2 large wires from the battery to the engine/starter? First, what size wire have you been using, and second, how have you routed them -- next to the seat, high on the fuselage, or somehow through the spar? Have you put both wires together, or one on each side? Are there any other issues in wiring for a starter and generator?
Some pictures of wiring paths would be great if anybody has them.
Thanks.
-------------------- Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
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eugenio
First Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: Str. Val S. Martino inferiore 133/7 I - 10131 Torino ITALY
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 294
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Posted Thursday, May 28, 2009 @ 12:38 PM
I have not the starter, but I installed a 17Ah battery just behind the firewall, in the modified wheel shell. It is a gel cell battery, strong enough also for cranking the starter, and is serviceable from the undercarriage just opening a small cover. This is the best position to avoid cables running back and forth in the fuselage. For the starter cables AWG 9 or 7 should be ok, smaller just reduce the cranking power (fall of tension).
Installing the battery that way you sort directly in the firewall so you just have less than one yard of cable.
Eugenio
[Edit by eugenio on Thursday, May 28, 2009 @ 12:50 PM]
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Jorgen
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Lund, Sweden
Registered: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 833
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Posted Thursday, May 28, 2009 @ 03:36 PM
Ciao Eugenio,
nice to hear that the EASA conversions haven´t broken your spirit yet. My friend Patrik and I are struggling with the documentation of everything as I type. I might mail you for questions later, Eugenio.
Dan, RF 4 D "SE-XSK" was for a long time the only RF 4 in Sweden, a rebuild from a wreck which has a 1600 VW and starter. I seem to remember that they mounted a battery under the pilot´s left knee at the front of the spar.
Take 5 (b) just 4 fun/ Jörgen
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dannparks
Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Parkside Airpark, Battle Ground, WA
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
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Posted Friday, May 29, 2009 @ 11:45 AM
I was concerned about weight and balance and figured it was best to put the battery behind the seat. My starter and alternator is adding about 20 lbs. right at the firewall. I have not figured a sample W&B for this plane, but do RF4's have issues being front heavy?
-------------------- Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
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eugenio
First Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: Str. Val S. Martino inferiore 133/7 I - 10131 Torino ITALY
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 294
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Posted Monday, June 1, 2009 @ 02:28 PM
Well. add an extra tank behind the seat and you will balance the battery. Jokes aside, I found lots of Fournier front heavy, especially those with the Limbach 1700, but even if overweight and tail light the flew quite well.
Only changing the old cowling with a new one you will save at least 4 to 5 lbs. If you are concerned about the weight you can also check for a lighter battery.
Also putting the battery under the left knee is a standard, but you will have it in a place that you can use for something else.
ciao
Eugenio
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Mike-RM
Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: East Sussex Gliding Club, Ringmer, UK
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 38
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Posted Sunday, June 7, 2009 @ 03:36 AM
Eric des Gayet's RF-4, F-BORK was owned and modified by Aerospatiale before he bought it. It has a 1700cc engine with starter, alternator etc and virtually a full airways panel, twin altimeters etc! It has a high empty weight - I think Eric said only 50kg below max all up, so not too much for pilot and fuel (legally), but I flow F-BORK last year and the handling was fine. I'll ask Eric where the battery is.
Mike
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Mike-RM
Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: East Sussex Gliding Club, Ringmer, UK
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 38
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Posted Sunday, June 7, 2009 @ 05:00 PM
Hi again Dann
Eric says the battery on F-BORK is behind the seat. He also says he has approved plans for the mod - approved by French DGAC presumably.
Mike
[Edit by Mike-RM on Sunday, June 7, 2009 @ 05:02 PM]
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dannparks
Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Parkside Airpark, Battle Ground, WA
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
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Posted Sunday, June 21, 2009 @ 10:06 AM
Thanks, Mike. Although it is not optimal, it is most convenient for me to put the battery behind the seat. Would it be possible to have Eric check his plans and find the wire gage they recommend for the long run from the battery to the engine? Thanks.
-------------------- Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
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Mike-RM
Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: East Sussex Gliding Club, Ringmer, UK
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 38
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Posted Tuesday, June 23, 2009 @ 06:33 PM
I'll ask the question - if I can figure out what wire gage is in technical french! I would have thought that standrd automotive battery cable should be OK - small car VW type that is. Alternatively, the cable for the RF-5 would be suitable, if we can figure out what gauge it is (excuse English spelling!). I can look at ours tomorrow and measure the outside diameter, but that doesn't enable me to work out the gauge.
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583
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Posted Wednesday, June 24, 2009 @ 04:57 PM
I have a suggestion that you could use an Odessy Battery so you can mount it in any convenient position
as these are sealed all position dry cell battery technology.
They are lighter weight as well and at $90 (625 model) are a great deal.
I have one in my Grob 109 with Limbach L2000 engine and love it.
It provides quicker starts because these batteries are delivering more current faster than an equivalent sized lead acid battery.
They can also be quick charged faster.
Ray
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583
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Posted Wednesday, June 24, 2009 @ 05:08 PM
Engineering it the other way I did some checking and 10 - 8 guage jumper cables should be more than adequate and will not
cost a lot.
Just pick up some $25 jumper cables and you will have what you need.
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dannparks
Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Parkside Airpark, Battle Ground, WA
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
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Posted Thursday, June 25, 2009 @ 06:33 PM
Great Plains has a small sealed gel cell battery that I think I can fit under my left leg in front of the spar (probably like SE-XSK). This is probably better than running wires around the seat. It's only 10 lbs, and will allow shorter and lighter wiring as well.
At least that's what I'm thinking now...
-------------------- Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
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Sam M.
First Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: Santa Paula, CA
Registered: Jul 2008
Status: Offline
Posts: 228
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Posted Friday, June 26, 2009 @ 03:22 PM
our battery mounted to the back of the seat back as well.
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dannparks
Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Parkside Airpark, Battle Ground, WA
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
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Posted Saturday, June 27, 2009 @ 10:50 AM
How are the wires run around the seat? Can you tell what gauge they are? Can you take pictures?
-------------------- Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
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Mike-RM
Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: East Sussex Gliding Club, Ringmer, UK
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 38
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Posted Sunday, June 28, 2009 @ 05:11 AM
I measured the main battery cable on our RF-5 with calipers and the multi-strand cable without the outer insullation is 6.5mm (0.27 inch) diameter. Eric measured the cable on his RF-4 F-BORC and says it 'has a section of 5 square millimeters'. Maybe he means 5x5mm = 25mm squared area, which is a bit smaller than the ones on the RF-5, but probably OK I guess. He also says the starter circuit breaker is 7.2amps. Hope this helps. Here is a picture of Eric's battery installation. The dial on the right is a tacho/hour meter, nothing to do with the electrics.
[Edit by Mike-RM on Sunday, June 28, 2009 @ 05:19 AM]
[Edit by Mike-RM on Sunday, June 28, 2009 @ 05:20 AM]
[Edit by Mike-RM on Sunday, June 28, 2009 @ 05:42 AM]
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2027
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Posted Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 11:19 AM
Hi Guys,
I sure do hope all your battery installations have been checked to +6/-3g.
You never know when somebody might jump into the airplane and fly aerobatics, and believe me, to have a battery flying around inside the airplane is not a pleasant experience.
I know, mine came undone and punched a hole in the top decking!
Yours, Bob
[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Thursday, July 2, 2009 @ 05:10 PM]
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SteveBeaver
General
Gender: Male
Location: Columbus, Ohio - USA
Registered: Jan 2007
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Posts: 454
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Posted Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 01:10 PM
This is a very long thread for a very short question!
6 gauge wire would be about right. 4 gauge would be overkill for the short run and modest torque required in an RF4.
I suspect "the starter circuit breaker is 7.2 amps" refers not to the starter motor itself, but to the solenoid that engages it. The starter takes a lot more than 7 amps.
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 @ 04:32 PM
My RF4D has 2 Gel cell bateries connected in parallel of about 7ah each.
1 is under the left knee and the other is mounted on the back side of a Hatch in the rear storage area.
The starter breaker is 50 amps and pops out if I crank for more than 10 seconds. (Which only occured twice durring my starting problems initially)
My battery cable is only 14 guage and looses too much power. I will change them out for 12 or 10 Guage soon which should be adequate and
give the starter more cranking power.
You can tell when they are NOT adequate if they get warm when cranking. (Beware the fire Hazard in a WOOD airplane from poor electrics)
-------------------- Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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Collin
General
Gender: Male
Location: McMinnville. Oregon
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 711
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 @ 09:33 PM
This is the battery set up in my RF4. It is 17 amps.
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