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JamesB
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Posted Saturday, May 31, 2014 @ 06:34 PM  

So.....a year ago at this time, I did a top overhaul on the engine. Really liked the result. Excellent compression & smooth running engine.

About a month ago, was doing a 50 hour service/inspection and found one of the nuts on the head studs was loose. Tightening it only made the head stud turn in the block. A classic example of a 10mm head stud pulling out of an engine case.

Technically, you could put in a threaded sleeve or helicoil, but I didn't feel that was a proper fix in this instance, thinking that it wouldn't be strong enough (the case had already been machined to accommodate larger cylinders). See top left stud position. By the time you drill that for a 14mm insert, you'd probably be through the wall.

So, we ordered a new case. No question about the condition of the new case and it comes threaded for the preferred 8mm head studs.



Although it's been sitting a while waiting for it's place in production, it's now on the mill.

The cylinder openings have been enlarged to accommodate the larger cylinders. The side of the block has been machined to move the fuel pump. Cutouts will be added for the starter, etc.

With any luck, will have an engine to install by the end of next week.

Aside from all new bearings, I expect to reuse the piston rings/cylinders/valves/etc. since they only have 50 hours on them since the last rebuild. A final inspection of the parts will determine if any of them get replaced.

Jorgen
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Posted Sunday, June 1, 2014 @ 03:06 PM  

Hi James,
I think I had a similar experience:

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=mWdaIX3wf0ZA61cQBm2peCPGQE&forum=11&thread=365

but I had a guy with a high-tech lathe do new inserts so I just swithched the studs and the inserts that would come loose. Was the threads (in the case) for the insert shot? Anyway, it might be better with a new case for peace of mind. What alloy is your case made of?

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

JamesB
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Posted Monday, June 2, 2014 @ 09:09 AM  

Quote:
Originally posted by Jorgen

Hi James,
I think I had a similar experience:


About the same, except the insert on mine pulled out of the case. Had it been a stud in a different position, we could have probably used an oversized insert.

Quote:

Was the threads (in the case) for the insert shot?

Yes. The stud turned easily in the case.

Quote:

What alloy is your case made of?

I was told this is a magnesium alloy.

Quote:

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

May the 5's be with you.

Roger.Camp
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Posted Monday, June 16, 2014 @ 06:05 AM    YIM

Later and aftermarket Type 1 engine housings are made of AS41 material. The term AS is 41 means a magnesium alloy with four percent aluminum and one percent silicium content and are therefore stronger than the old housing AS21 which as the name implies, Magnesium with 2 percent aluminium and 1 percent silicium.

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JamesB
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Posted Monday, June 16, 2014 @ 09:45 AM  

Thanks Roger.

The engine shop says they've finished machining the case and it should go back together this week (which they've been predicting for several weeks). With any luck, will have something to test by next weekend. Biggest annoyance has been that delays for parts or tools (special tap & drill bit) bumped it out of the regular production cycle where it sat while other easier, more typical engine jobs were completed and delivered to customers.

The good news for someone else is that if you need a similar service, they've now done it, know all the steps, have the unique tools in place, etc. -- so the turnaround should be a small fraction of what I've experienced.

JamesB
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Posted Friday, June 27, 2014 @ 10:31 AM  

Back about April 1st when I started the 50hr service/inspection, my required Biennial Flight Review due by June 30th seemed easy and distant. I was ahead of schedule. Now, still trying to get the airplane back in the air, things are a bit more tense to try to get it done while I'm still legal.

Hung the engine last weekend. One of the Absolute Best decisions of the build was to remove the exhaust head studs, helicoil the openings and replace them with bolts for the exhaust manifold. Has made the process Much easier. The exhaust manifold & muffler just slide on and off without drama.

However, the engine started, but didn't run smoothly.

Compression tests revealed that #1 cylinder was lower than the others. Removed the head/piston/cylinder & took them to the engine shop. After new rings on the piston & the removal of a small lead deposit on the exhaust valve and the compression was comparable with the others. But the engine still didn't run smoothly. Seemed to have little to no effect.

This is Frustrating as the engine was just an absolute dream when we took it apart for the head stud issue.
It now has a rougher idle. Between 1400-2400 rpm, it vibrates enough to rattle your teeth. Above that, as you push the throttle forward, the rpms drop, then pick up again with more throttle--but still vibrating and with less than full power.

The next day (Tuesday) was a required transponder test. The shop doing the test is on my field, so while minimizing the vibrations, I could still taxi down to the shop for it. Of course, it didn't pass. Transponder is fine, but the altitude encoder didn't. Ordered a new solid state one. To be installed later today (Friday). Should be ok then.

In the mean time, have checked for intake manifold leaks, propeller tracking, correct timing, similarity of plug color and problems with the carburetor. Took the carb apart. Cleaned the passages; checked the floats & bowl; checked the diaphragm. Nothing seemed unusual. Setting the mixture a little richer delayed the onset of the rpm drop, but it was still there.

Best next guess is that even though the resistance on the plugs seemed ok, there are one or two plugs that are marginal and not firing completely or correctly under pressure. So, will swap in a different set of plugs this morning to see if it makes a difference. If not, my mechanic will check the plug wires later today -- but it's a completely new mag harness that's only about a year old; so I'm not expecting it to be a plug wire.

I'm hoping that it's just a misbehaving plug or two (which I should have checked earlier in the week). I'd pay for a set of new plugs if a local shop had them for a reasonable price--just to completely take them out of the equation.

Would be nice to get the glider flying, get in a few hours of practice, then be able to fly to the examiner's field for the BFR on Monday.

No minute like the last minute.

(And next month is the annual condition inspection.... Yeehaa.)

D. Porter
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Posted Friday, June 27, 2014 @ 06:23 PM  

Hey James,

I hear you on how things stack up, even when it's what we want to be doing.

I just did the BFR, now a flight physical and condition inspection are on the horizon.
You don't have to do the BFR in your plane. And you can't fail a BFR, worst case it's just an hour of dual. Don't sweat it.

Keep us updated on the engine issue.

Don

Quote:
Originally posted by JamesB

Back about April 1st when I started the 50hr service/inspection, my required Biennial Flight Review due by June 30th seemed easy and distant. I was ahead of schedule. Now, still trying to get the airplane back in the air, things are a bit more tense to try to get it done while I'm still legal.

Would be nice to get the glider flying, get in a few hours of practice, then be able to fly to the examiner's field for the BFR on Monday.

No minute like the last minute.

(And next month is the annual condition inspection.... Yeehaa.)


JamesB
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Posted Saturday, June 28, 2014 @ 10:34 AM  

Thanks Don. I have considered doing the BFR in a 172, but haven't actually flown anything other than the RF5B since 2003. The main thing is that if I can do the BFR while I'm legal, I can fly the glider to the CFI-G which is a good bit cheaper than paying him to fly/drive to my airport. Not a big deal. Would just like to get it done.

Update:
Put in a different set of plugs yesterday. Little if any change. My A&P checked the plug wires and says they're ok.

So, now we're down to an intake manifold leak and/or the carb. The engine did respond a little to a change in carb mixture. I have tended to use a CO meter to get the mixture close, then refine the adjustment based on running-behavior/performance.

I tried to use my CO meter yesterday, but gusting winds and heavy rain put a stop to that. Will try again today. Probably in order will be:
- try to get the existing carb adjusted. With any luck (I'm not hopeful), a mere adjustment of the mixture will be enough.

___- if the low rpms become smooth, but I still get a drop in rpm's as I increase the throttle, try a thinner oil in the carb damper; I switched to a summer oil (but that has made little difference in the past).

___-if I can't seem to get it adjusted,
_____- remove the carb, try to create positive pressure in the manifold with my shop vac and see if soapy water indicates any leaks in the manifold
_______- if there's an obvious leak, fix it and probably put the same carb back on
_______- if no obvious leak, install my spare Stromberg. Since I've never used this carb, I've been slow to put it on as I don't know what new issues it might bring with it.

I'm assuming for now, that I have a basically good running system...just some odd gremlin has crept in and doesn't realize yet that it's not welcome.

SteveBeaver
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Posted Saturday, June 28, 2014 @ 12:05 PM    YIM

My first suspicion with an engine that has been idle for some time is the magneto contact breakers. It is amazing what strange and seemingly improbable symptoms corroded points produce.

Most recently an engine that would run only on the front two cylinders but not the rear two. Cleaned and gapped he point and all was well.

Steve

JamesB
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Posted Sunday, June 29, 2014 @ 12:29 PM  

Thanks Steve. If a carb adjustment/replacement doesn't work, that will be next. (I'd have to get my A&P involved with that one, so will exhaust what I can do without running up more bills.)

We had more wind and rain yesterday. Used a shop vac to create positive pressure in the intake manifold -- no soapy bubbles from any of the connections. (Did see a few from the throttle shaft on the side of the carb, so I knew I had enough pressure to create them.)

I remembered that the last thing I did to the carb was replace the Marvel Mystery Oil in the damper with a heavier 10w30 for summer. I removed that oil & replaced it with MMO again.

Between showers, pulled it out of the hangar and got the mixture fairly close with a CO meter. Started raining again, so had to cut that short and pull the glider back in the hangar before I could try running up the engine. Will try that today.

[Edit by JamesB on Sunday, June 29, 2014 @ 12:31 PM]

SteveBeaver
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Posted Monday, June 30, 2014 @ 02:02 AM    YIM

Remember that the oil in the damper/dashpot controls how quickly the needle moves for a give change in throttle setting. Once the engine has ceased to change RPM (or at least a second or so thereafter) it really has no effect on anything at all. Think about changing oil viscosity only if the engine hesitates when moving the throttle quickly.

Good luck with the investigation,

Steve

JamesB
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Posted Monday, June 30, 2014 @ 08:48 AM  

Between rain showers, initial tests indicate that the lighter weight oil in the dashpot and the mixture adjustment have removed the flat spot & the engine is running smoother. Top static RPM is 3200+.
JamesB
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Posted Tuesday, July 1, 2014 @ 08:00 PM  

Finally tracked down the source of a 1500-2200 vibration. The spinner was not as carefully centered as it should have been. Couldn't see it well from the cockpit, but more obvious from the side.
dannparks
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Posted Thursday, July 3, 2014 @ 09:41 PM  

James, do you think you'll be able to bring the 5B to The Arlington Fly-in?

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Posted Friday, July 4, 2014 @ 01:11 AM  

Hi Dann,

I will also give Douglas and Bob a call. If we all can make that would be 5 Rfs

Collin

JamesB
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Posted Friday, July 4, 2014 @ 11:30 AM  

At this time, it looks like I should be able to.

Just need to decide between open or closed canopies.

JamesB
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Posted Tuesday, August 5, 2014 @ 12:17 PM  

Well, a lot has happened.

Vibration
It wasn't the spinner and it was hard to distinguish the increase in vibration from some rough running of the engine. Checked the tracking of the prop. It seemed to be off. Reinstalled the prop at 180 degrees -- vibration gone.

Issues with the engine
But I still had an engine that was stumbling and coughing out black, sooty exhaust.
Electrical? Put in a set of new, fine wire Champions. No improvement. Plug wires were essentially new and tested ok. Overhauled the maneto. No improvement. So, unlikely to be electrical.

Carburetor became the most likely culprit. I have a carb that was (expensively) modified to make it more easily adjustable. Maybe it was causing problems. Collin, graciously sent me a spare to try. No improvement.

Seemed impossible. My A&P siad I must have two bad carbs. Hm-m-m. Seemed like a slim chance. What could be common to both? The fuel.

I have always run 100LL but was encouraged to switch to unleaded premium when we rebuilt thye engine. Even the engine shop complained about lead deposits. We have a local supplier of non-alcohol auto fuel in Auburn and I had refilled the tank with fuel from their Premium pump. Maybe it was a bad batch. Maybe with the Total Seal piston rings maxing out the engine compression and an auto fuel that had lower octane than expected, it was just too much for it. Other pilots on the field use this supplier, but inchecking, they all have low compression engines that use "regular." No one I talked to needed or used their higher octane fuel.

Drained the tank. Refilled with 100LL. Initial start was the same as there was residual auto fuel in the system. Taxiing around a large parking area, I could actually hear the tenor of the engine change. Pulled into a runup area. It pulled strong up to 3100 rpm (tach reading). No stumbling. No soot. Taxied down to another run up area; same strong running.

Took the airplane for a flight. Sarted quickly. Pulled strong. Placed it in a long steady climb for about a half hour to burn any soot out of the engine. After landing, fuel consumption was spot on and the exhaust was a light tan. Essentially perfect.

But would it work as well from cold? Next morning, started the engine; no choke. Pulled the starter and it was like flipping a light switch to "on"--instantly fired. Another long climb. Cooled the engine. Mid-flight restart; the engine fired up with less than a full blade revolution. (Essentially as the prop began to move, it was already running.) After landing. Fuel consumption was in the expected range; exhaust color, light tan.

So...for the past month (string of expletives appropriate for late evenings of high alcohol consumption), we have been chasing largely a fuel problem and nothing was really at issue in the newly rebuilt engine.

Ugh. Glad to have this behind me.

[Edit by JamesB on Tuesday, August 5, 2014 @ 12:20 PM]

Jorgen
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Posted Tuesday, August 5, 2014 @ 06:28 PM  

What a story James,
exciting like a detective story but that was an unexpected culprit to me. Like you I've heard more talk about lead deposits and after all VW Engines are mostly "min 88 octane" or similar (unless you have higher compression pistons/rings?). Glad to hear all is well, I just had sooty, misfiring idle and higher fuelconsumption in the 4 that most likely was caused by cracked exhausts. Perhaps you've already checked for that- otherwise your 100 LL maybe sealed the cracks with lead deposits?;-)

May the 4s be with you/ Jörgen

JamesB
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Posted Wednesday, August 6, 2014 @ 11:30 AM  

Hi Jörgen. I don't think cracked exhaust valves are an issue in my case.

The engine had a top overhaul 50 hours ago--mostly new valves. The engine is just coming out of a major rebuild with a new engine case. So, the rings & valves were checked, but still essentially only 50 hours old. Warm, compression is 80/80; 78/80 cold (although an exhaust valve crack might not lower compression in its early stages). Even if there was a crack, I don't think it would have been filled with lead in just a few minutes of running.

My best guess is still an issue with octane. One fuel station in town sells 100 octane fuel for the local auto racing crowd. I might try that--someday. But since the airplane has been inoperative for 4 months, my only interest at this point is flying. I enjoy maintaining the airplane, but it wasn't purchased to be a project (a legitimate reason to buy an airplane--just not mine). Others have reported good experience with unleaded, so I think the issue is with the unleaded fuel I got from that particular source.

If 100LL yields a better running engine, but I have to pull the heads every other year for maintenance -- that simply isn't a big job. That job has been made dramatically easier on my engine by replacing the exhaust studs in the heads with bolts and helicoils (which let you drop the exhaust system easily as a single unit).

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Posted Wednesday, August 6, 2014 @ 01:47 PM  

James,

Alcor TCP Fuel Treatment was recommended for my engine. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/alcortcp.php?clickkey=9421
Might be worth considering, if I understand your problem correctly.

Don

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Posted Thursday, August 7, 2014 @ 09:43 AM  

Thanks Don.

I've used TCP for several years now. I'm not sure if it makes much difference. I do see more exhaust deposits down the side of the airplane when I use it (which might be material that would have stayed in the engine -- no way to tell as far as I know). May do as much good to periodically run the engine at higher RPM's under load.

James

[Edit by JamesB on Thursday, August 7, 2014 @ 11:12 AM]

Jorgen
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Posted Thursday, August 7, 2014 @ 05:48 PM  

Sorry James, I was unclear. I was referring to a classical RF 4 problem- the top two exhaust pipes (the short ones from the rear cylinders) vibrate quite a bit and are very prone to crack were the pipe is welded to the exhaust port flange. I came back after a 1000 mile commute with both exhausts cracked completely off, only hanging in the clamps together with the other pipe. No wonder fuel consumption went up....

I haven't heard of cracked exhaust pipes occuring with RF 5s (at least not RF 5b's) since the pipes go to the muffler which is supported and hence must vibrate much less than the 4's straight, unsupported pipes.

I'm happy your Engine seems healthier, but I still think it's a bit odd that MOGAS caused all your problems.

May the 4s be with you/ Jörgen

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Posted Thursday, August 7, 2014 @ 07:01 PM  

Quote:
Originally posted by Jorgen

...I was referring to a classical RF 4 problem- the top two exhaust pipes (the short ones from the rear cylinders) vibrate quite a bit and are very prone to crack were the pipe is welded to the exhaust port flange.

I don't know about other RF-5's, but I've had a rear exhaust pipe crack at the flange. The muffler is quite a bit of weight to be thrown around by vibrations.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jorgen...I still think it's a bit odd that MOGAS caused all your problems.

Well, I can firmly claim that not all my problems are from MOGAS. Some are from genetics and some from the way I was raised. But I have been surprised that the engine had such extensive issues with the fuel from that supplier.

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Posted Tuesday, August 12, 2014 @ 02:33 AM  

Glad to see things sorted out. There is a Northwest Antique Airplane Club fly-in at Scappoose this Saturday (16th). If you're looking for a destination, maybe we could meet up. Maybe Collin and Bob too?

--------------------
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Posted Tuesday, August 12, 2014 @ 10:04 PM  

Hi Dann,

I plan on going with the C170. The RF5B is apart for the annual.

Collin

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Posted Thursday, August 14, 2014 @ 10:14 AM  

I'd like to go, but am tied up with an in-law's wedding.

(I told them to check the NAAC fly-in dates before they scheduled their wedding. Rude. Just rude....)

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