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RF3: SN59: G-ATBP printer friendly version
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Donald
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Posted Monday, August 1, 2011 @ 11:01 AM  

RF3: SN59: G-ATBP: Built 1965:
I have a book titled “THE LIGHTPLANE SINCE 1909” by John Underwood and George Collinge, published in 1975 by Heritage Press of Glendale California. On page 94 is a photograph of an RF3, and it’s mine, G-ATBP. I also have a publication called “SCOTLAND SCANNED”, a guide to aviation in Scotland, published in 1977 which has another photograph of G-ATBP in a hangar at Arbroath, Scotland. I bought these books twenty years before G-ATBP became mine in 1996 and probably about 5 years before I first saw one for real.
RF3 SN59 was the first to be imported into the UK and was therefore the CAA test and evaluation example of the type. There is a photograph of her, taken in May 1965 when she was brand new, on the Air Britain website: http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1051747/

I don’t have the first log books so what little I know of her early history has been gleaned from various sources since I bought her but her CAA records show that she was initially based in the south of England and had 3 owners in as many years suggesting that these people saw her as something of a passing novelty. Her fourth owner, also in the south of England, sold her after 7 years and she moved north to Scotland. For 8 years between 1976 and 1984 she was operated by the Fulmar Flying Group based at what was then the Royal Naval Air Station at Lossiemouth, just 25 miles from her present home at Inverness.

In 1984 she changed services from the navy to the air force and went south again to the RAF Dishforth Flying Group in Yorkshire and in 1992 she was sold again and went to Doncaster to the man from whom I bought her in 1996. So in her 46 years I have owned her for the longest continuous time.

Her provenance has been varied and has caused me headaches in the past and, with the latest European legislation, promises to be problematic in the future. When first registered she would have had a C of A but in the 1970’s she was moved on to a Permit to Fly, much like the American ‘EXPERIMENTAL’ category, but bizarrely she was later moved back on to a C of A, a move I understood to be impossible. To this day she remains the sole RF3 of the 9 on the UK register not on a Permit to Fly.

She has had her share of incident and accident, mostly while in the hands of the services flying groups and only recently I was sent photographs of the time she was taxying in freezing fog and met a car going the opposite direction on the runway at Dishforth. The pictures show a sorry sight with her gear collapsed, her prop broken and her starboard D box punctured in several places, though the car didn’t fare too well either. This may have been in 1993 as there is a log book entry of repairs to the starboard D box although there is no mention of a broken prop or other damage at that time. The log book also records a repair to the port wing top skin in 1989 and a gear collapse in 1990.

At engine overhaul in 1989 the engine capacity was increased from 1200cc to 1400. In 1990 a carb heat system was added because, I have been told, the group felt the increased capacity led to carb icing at 2900rpm. This modification I never found effective and was actually detrimental. The flap valve box on the carb distorted the carb body to float chamber joint and the cuff around the exhaust stub destroyed the stub by corrosion either in the weld or due to dissimilar metals. I removed it when I replaced the exhausts in 2000 to no ill effect whatsoever.

In the interests of weight reduction I replaced a heavy battery with one much smaller but perfectly adequate and a heavy and very ugly radio antenna. That antenna weighed about 5lb and the ground plane was 3mm thick!

In 2000 I landed gear-up. There was no airframe structural damage at all, what damage there was being confined to the prop and the gear doors but mostly to my pride.

As appeasement to the Fournier for the gear-up affront I had her recovered in 2001 and painted in her current white and green scheme. When she was subsequently weighed she was found to have shed 30lbs!

I don’t know for sure but I suspect that during her group-owned history she never really toured very far but I have flown her to France, to the RSA rally at Epinal, so maybe as well as having owned her longest I’ve also toured her farthest. I’d guess I’ve also flown her farthest over water. Twenty five miles out to Fair Isle between Orkney and Shetland, a very lonely stretch of water, and about the same to Stornoway in the Outer Hebrides. Twenty miles from Folkstone, England to Cap Griz Nez in France is, by comparison, a short crossing.

One as yet unfulfilled ambition is to fly her to her place of birth, Gap Tallard. Maybe one day.

Current airframe hours: 2821 of which 540 are mine.

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, August 3, 2011 @ 05:38 AM  

Hi Donald,

I'm sure you've already seen it, but here's the accident report on that ground collision in fog.

A/C Type: Fournier RF3 Occurrence Number: 198200027
Flight Phase: Taxy Occurrence Date 01 Jan 1982
Classification: Occurrences Location: DISHFORTH
Events: Occurrence

Pretitle:
Occurrence: COLLISION WITH CAR WHILE TAXYING IN FOG

Precis:
CAR COMING IN OPPOSITE DIRECTION WITHOUT LIGHTS AND IN UNAUTHORISED AREA. DAMAGE TO GEAR, PROP AND WING

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, August 3, 2011 @ 05:54 AM  

And I'm also sure you're aware that 'TBP is featured in this detailed air test report

http://www.cfiamerica.com/FI-RF3.htm

and this one...

http://www.cfiamerica.com/Air_Pictorial_RF3.htm

Yours, Bob

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Donald
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Posted Wednesday, August 3, 2011 @ 06:40 AM  

Bob, many thanks. I had not seen the accident report of the collision in fog, so the starboard wing has been damaged at least twice. The date, 1st January makes me wonder if a hangover might have been contributory and 1982 is much more consistent with the car registration number, but it might have been an old banger used for running around the airfield.

I had seen the other two but had forgotten about them. I'm getting old and ... the other thing...

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, August 3, 2011 @ 06:52 AM  

Hi Donald,

Glad to be of assistance, and yes, I came to the same conclusion about the date and the foggy brains as well as the foggy weather!

If I unearth any more info on your aeroplane, I will post it, but I suspect that's all I have.

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Donald
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Posted Saturday, August 6, 2011 @ 05:31 PM  

Thanks again Bob. What I'd really like to unearth are the first logbooks. I have spoken to several people who knew BP in the past but I have been told that the man from whom I acquired her declined to take them! Declined! It beggars belief. Keith McBride, if you ever read this, I mean you.

However, since this is about my aircraft's history I will add the plea that if anyone ever comes across an engine or airframe logbook for G-ATBP please get in touch.

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Monday, August 8, 2011 @ 10:26 AM  

Hi again Donald,

If it helps, the registered owner in 1986 was M J Aherne, 17 Chestnut Grove, Harrogate, North Yorkshire HG1 4HS.

And I have the same problem with 'WGN's early log books. No consolation, I know.

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Donald
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Posted Monday, August 8, 2011 @ 12:39 PM  

Thanks again Bob.

I met Mike Aherne on the way home from the CFI UK meet at Husbands Bosworth. After being weathered in at Sutton Bank a lady approached me to say that she and her husband used to fly BP and how delighted she was to see it again and still flying. She was Mrs Aherne and Mike turned up shortly afterwards. It was he who told me that Keith McBride, from whom I bought BP, had 'declined' the log books.

Donald

[Edit by Donald on Monday, August 8, 2011 @ 12:40 PM]

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Monday, August 8, 2011 @ 01:24 PM  

Hi again Donald,

I didn't know your Fournier's earliest history, so I've been going back through some old black-and-white photos I took when I was a teenager.

I knew there was an RF3 in there somewhere I took at an early Biggin Hill Air Fair, impressed by its looks as much as its economy.
But it's not yours, it's N67, F-BMTF, parked outside the Flairavia tent, probably in 1964/65?
It looks so shiny and new.
Unfortunately my scanner's sulking at the mo' or I'd post it.

Ah, memories, memories.

Yours, Bob

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Donald
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Posted Monday, August 15, 2011 @ 04:44 AM  

Plundering the online archives a little here for which I hope I'll be forgiven, but this is the earliest shot I can find of my aircraft, factory fresh in 1965.

January 1982, collision with car in freezing fog.

A cartoon of G-ATBP, which I think was made into a Christmas card, during a recover or maybe just a repaint. Dated 1988 she was at RAF Dishforth then so this must have been sketched in one of their hangars.

Another online plunder, taken in 1993, possibly at Doncaster or maybe Sandtoft, 3 years before I bought her. Here you can see the heavy and ugly radio antenna which I removed. It probably came off an RAF light transport or training aircraft. What's not evident in this picture is the horrible paint finish on the wings, particularly the right wing. Indeed when this picture was taken the paint suface may have looked OK as I reckoned it was probably the result of incompatible paints, one on top of another. Maybe the sketch above depicts the time of that paint being applied.

How she looks today. Taken in June 2011 on the beach at Sollas, North Uist.

Donald

[Edit by Donald on Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 02:44 AM]

Mike-RM
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Posted Friday, February 3, 2012 @ 04:52 PM  

Hi Donald

I was a member of the Fulmar syndicate from 1976 to 1977 and flew about 20 hours in G-ATBP according to my logbook, including one flight of nearly 2 hours to 10,000ft in wave lift for a 5 minute engine run! I remember landing engine off in a 30kt headwing on the apron in front of the hangar with very little groundspeed! I recall once trying an air restart using the decompessor and being rather taken aback by the need to achieve nearly VNE before the prop turned over, loosing a thousand feet in the process, not something to try after an hour climbing to 10,000ft with a really cold engine!

I think the furthest she ventured during my tenure was 50 miles to Aboyne. There were four in the syndicate at the time, including the Fulmer CFI, Harry Orme, who I met again quite recently, flying the beautifully restored G-AWBJ belonging to NeilBigrigg and co. I seem to recall that when we acquired ATBP she had suffered yet another wheels up landing, although I think it was due to undercarriage collapse rather than pilot error as I recall the locking mechanism being somewhat worn, it being possible to over-ride it with a good tug, and it required some welding and reprofiling. I think she had acquired the nylon outriggers by the time I flew her, so the hoop outriggers shown in the first Air Britain photo were replaced qquite early in her life. In fact, the Fulmar group, which operated with the RAFGSA Fulmar gliding club, flew from Milltown, an old wartime airfield a few miles east of Lossiemouth, where we cohabited with the Highland Gliding club. ATBP never flew from Lossiemouth to my knowledge.

I was flying Shackletons from Lossiemouth at the time and sadly had to sell my share after a year on being posted onto Victor Tankers - happy days!

[Edit by Mike-RM on Friday, February 3, 2012 @ 04:57 PM]

[Edit by Mike-RM on Friday, February 3, 2012 @ 05:06 PM]

Donald
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Posted Sunday, February 26, 2012 @ 12:51 PM  

Thanks Mike.

Of course I know you flew G-ATBP when she was with the Fulmar Group. 10,000 ft for 5 minutes engine time is my sort of frugality but I've never come close to that. My most frugal flight was in the winter of 2000 when all the local flyers were out trying to find a friend who had gone down in the mountains. I ambled around my search box at 2200rpm for just under 3 hours and needed just 12 litres to top off when I got back.

Airstarting with the decompressor isn't usually problematic. The manual gives the airstart dive speed at 97 kts and I've not always needed to go that fast, about 90 is usually enough, and I reckon it can easily be done within 500ft height loss. That said my personal rule is if I'm below 1500 ft AGL I'll focus on landing it.

Only once was it unwilling to relight and that was after a prolonged engine-off from 10,000 ft. The engine had got really cold soaked and wouldn't fire. After using up about 1,500ft of altitude and getting close to my 1,500ft AGL rule I figured out it needed a shot of choke and we were instantly back in business as a powered flying machine. That was my one time when, concentrating on one thing I inadvertently bust VNE. I'm not going to say by how much, but nothing fluttered or came off.

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Posted Monday, February 27, 2012 @ 12:32 PM  

Donald,
that's been my experience too, if you soar in cold temperatures for more than say half an hour you should be mentally prepared to give a short dab of choke to the windmilling but "unfiring" engine and it will fire. I think you need to be careful though, too much choke and you might soak it. Needless to say it makes sense to let it warm up at lower speeds and rpm (60-70 mph and around 2200 rpm) for a couple of minutes if you had to use the choke, that's my standard practise for Air-restarts anyway. Check the thread "Flying- Springsoaring eleven".

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

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Posted Monday, February 27, 2012 @ 01:42 PM  

Jorgen, I quite agree on both counts. It doesn't need much choke to get the fire going again but it does need some. Absolutely do not pull the choke before getting the prop turning!
And for sure, a modest throttle setting initially to get some warmth into the engine but these birds will cheerfully fly on a modest power setting. I know people with aero VWs in homebuilt aircraft that must be operated at pretty much full bore just to stay aloft. The Fournier isn't like that.

Donald

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Posted Monday, February 27, 2012 @ 06:23 PM  

Yes,
just for anyone who hasn't been in the situation "a short dab of choke" might not be a very helpful advice- I'd say that slightly less than one second choke open (I find the windmilling prop to spin typically somewhere around 2000 rpm) is OK but not more than one second.

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Tuesday, December 8, 2015 @ 11:47 PM  

Hi Donald,

I have just discovered this photo of your RF3 in Jane's AWA 1965-66

I don't know why I never noticed it before.

That's another one for your collection.

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Donald
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Posted Wednesday, December 9, 2015 @ 03:51 PM  

Thanks Bob, I had not seen that before. Looks almost like a model in that photo.
Not sure what they mean by 'Three-section air brake on each wing'. They have three panels, yes, but the way they write it makes it seem like they are separate and perhaps separately deployable.

On a topical note if the weather doesn't improve I may have to figure out how to put her on floats.

Donald

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Monday, December 14, 2015 @ 11:07 PM  

What interested me Donald was the comment: 'It is capable of... stall turns, loops, half rolls, slow rolls and spins.'
Now I better understand the silly limitation to those manoeuvres in the RF4D's Handbook.
We know that René didn't want to go all through the laborious process of certifying the RF4D from scratch, so he got it approved as a sub-type of the RF3, and I guess some limitations, like those on aerobatic manouvres, were just carried over from the earlier aeroplane.

So much of this history has just evaporated over the years, so it's great to unearth something like this from time to time.

I am sorry, although not really surprised, to hear that excessive precipitation has prevented you from flying Donald. I pay for the privelige, but I'm comparatively fortunate that Dunsfold has hard runways so that I can fly all year round.

Let's look forward to a sunny spring and summer 2016.

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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Posted Tuesday, December 15, 2015 @ 05:03 PM  

Hi Bob,

I believe it was the UK CAA who restricted the RF3 to non-aerobatic flight, possibly over concern that inexperience or recklessness would have the wings off in flight.

A friend of the guy from whom I bought BP told me he'd looped her, but I never have. He was a little guy who sounded like he he knew what he was doing. I am bigger and don't.

The British version of the Flight Manual prohibits all sorts of exuberance, including spins, but the CofA I used to have before the advent of EASA and ARCs specifically included spins as permissible and correspondence I had with the CAA a long time ago made clear that, as they were written into the 'conditions' they should at least be included in the then 3 yearly air test. So I have spun her and while it's fairly nose down recovery is docile and straightforward.

At the moment though BP is grounded with the engine out. Your other thread http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=6GcKu9vK96nTZM3MVbfnbWCKCv&forum=13&thread=1123 intrigued me enough to check mine and it's well out of spec, so I'm preparing to have it overhauled. Last time was 26 years and over 900 hours ago so I cannot really complain. Perhaps by the time BP flies again the ground will have dried out some. God, I hope so!

Yours, Donald

[Edit by Donald on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 @ 05:05 PM]

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Sunday, December 18, 2016 @ 04:35 AM  

Hi again All, and Donald in particular.

There is a fascinating tale of intrigue and deception concerning G-ATBP in pages 146 to 148 of the recently-printed English translation of René's book.

It appears that the presence of thieves and scoundrels among the otherwise exemplary characters of British aviation is not a recent thing after all.

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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Posted Sunday, December 18, 2016 @ 07:12 AM  

How very intriguing, Bob, though not having a copy of René's book leaves me in the dark about such nefarious goings on.

Since I am posting and we're getting very close to the end of 2016 perhaps an update on BP's 2015 travails might be of a little interest.

A year ago I wrote that the engine was out for inspection after discovering that the run-out on the prop boss was out of spec. The report I got back showed my engine to be in generally very good shape but the prop was boss condemned and replaced. The old one came home with the engine allowing the opportunity to have a close look at it and my conclusions are surprising.

Witness marks indicate two 'hits' to the periphery of the hub at some time in the past. They look to be inwardly radial in direction not front to back. Now I have owned BP since 1996 and in that time I have had two prop strikes and once, in the hangar lifting the tail high, she got away from me and the spinner hit the floor. Any one of these incidents might have been expected to bend the crankshaft or distort the prop boss flange but it would have been impossible to hit the prop boss itself, so that damage had been in there for more than 20 years!

That was the first thing that kept my RF3 on the ground during the early part of 2016.

Next up was the annual inspection for Certificate renewal in late spring. This was going to be a bit more 'in depth' than normal because I had a mind to have the wing off to take a look at some things impossible to reach otherwise, notably the main gear.

Stripping the fairings I spotted what looked horribly like a crack in the underside of the D-box right at the root of the port side wing. Was this superficial, just in the paint or did it go deeper? BP wasn't going to fly until I knew for sure. That crack was in the plywood so I called out my inspector and after a lot of poking and pushing and shining of lights and probing with an endoscope a repair scheme was agreed upon.

One of the most frustrating, time consuming aspects was sourcing suitable 2mm plywood for the repair and I could find only a single supplier in the whole of the UK. But at last with material to hand I set about cutting into the wing and shaping the scarfs for the patch.

On the whole that all went well. It was time consuming, required a lot of careful work but the plywood patch was made, the fabric applied and finishing completed just about the time my inspector went to France for the month of July. C'est la guerre but it also gave me time to strip, clean and satisfy myself that the main gear was holding up just fine and that other components, not normally easily accessible were checked, cleaned and lubricated before the whole thing was reassembled.

Inspection of the repair was judged satisfactory and in mid august the paperwork was issued and my Fournier returned to the air.

After all that I replaced my spinner, but I have already posted about that on the Maintenance forum.

Finally, after missing so much time I find I have flown more in the ensuing 4 months than I might otherwise have done in a whole year.

As to what caused the plywood fracture in the first place my conclusion, supported by my inspector, is this. An earlier repair, made before my time to the same root bay D-box but further outboard, had been done with plywood thicker than the 2mm original. In consequence stresses were shifted to where they were not supposed to be and over time that took its toll.

Here's hoping 2017 won't be so 'interesting'.

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Posted Monday, December 19, 2016 @ 10:41 PM  

Hi Donald,

I was sorry to hear of your problems with your propeller hub. I am interested to know whether its distortion showed up in poor tracking of the prop tips or excessive vibration? Does your propeller now track better and run more smoothly?
I would also like to know where you got your replacement hub from?

I am guessing you got your plywood from Swindon? That is where I got mine, and I do know it can be very difficult nowadays to source both Finnish Birch ply and Sitka spruce in Britain.

The cause of your underwing crack is of course a classic issue; over strengthening one part of any kind of skin — ply or aluminium — always causes nearby areas to flex more and therefore potentially fatigue and crack.

I am delighted that, despite all your tribulations, you have managed to get plenty of flying done in the latter part of the season.

I am still hoping that we might get to meet up in our Fourniers one day.

Meanwhile I wish you an excellent year of flying in 2017.

Yours, Bob

[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Monday, December 19, 2016 @ 10:48 PM]

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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Posted Tuesday, December 20, 2016 @ 05:09 AM  

Hi Bob,

I was never really aware that any of my propellers didn't track properly but to a certain extent that can be taken up on the prop bolts as they are tightened, so perhaps not conclusive.

Vibration? Again not really, at least not enough to stand out and demand attention. There was always vibration but was it due to the prop hub being out of true or was it normal for a flying VeeDub with no flywheel? It came to me the way it was in 1996 so that was 'normal', but now and again I'd wonder about it and then I'd stop wondering. Mostly I put it down to the deteriorating condition of my spinner which, because the back plate was slightly too large in diameter, never went on quite the same way twice in a row. Flying with no spinner was smoother lending credence to that view, but I preferred to struggle to fit the spinner to help maintain the old girl's looks.

But it was your posting of the link to the Rectimo 1200 Service Bulletin No 3/65 that did it. I had recently bought a dial gauge and decided to check the runout on the hub and the rest is history, but it needed a dial gauge to find the problem. It wasn't something readily visible.

Certainly it is now much smoother than before but that is probably mainly down to my new spinner

I believe the replacement prop hub was supplied by Eugenio.

Tim Wood at Swindon was indeed the supplier of plywood for the wing repair. His was the only business I could find that could supply a 'mahogany' type of material, for my wing is not of birch plywood. Offcuts of very nice mahogany plywood gifted by friends and declared to be 2mm were rather less than that, possibly 1/16". Sadly, these had to be rejected.

However, all this is part and parcel of looking after an aeroplane that's half a century old! It can be disappointing at times, but it can also turn out to be immensely satisfying when we overcome the difficulties, fix the problems and get them back in the air. Certainly I'm glad I spotted the crack in the first place. A wing coming off would have been a nuisance.

My late season flying has been mostly fairly local, though I have managed occasional trips as far east and west as it's possible to go without leaving the country but no expeditions southward. I had hoped to stretch to the LAA Rally but support for my wife with a health matter put paid to that this year. Perhaps next, and yes, I hope one day we might meet in person.

Bob Grimstead
Captain

Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
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Posts: 2027

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Posted Wednesday, December 21, 2016 @ 08:37 PM  

'a nuisance', I love it!

Thank you Donald for that detailed explanation. I had forgotten the RF3 used Okumé rather than birch ply.

I am so please that you have now rendered your aeroplane both safer and smoother to fly.

May you have many more happy hours of flying in the coming years.

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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