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Bob Brock
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Posted Tuesday, May 29, 2012 @ 11:14 PM  

Greetings:

I am going to take Collin's prop back to Jeff and get some copies made. Props Inc. is located on the coast in Oregon. I have flown behind his props in a 8-10 aircraft including four motor gliders and they seem to get top performance out of the engines. Below is contact and some background information.... I think the web site is: Props Inc. As an aside, when I glued up parts of the rebuild, I used the glue Jeff uses for props.


The Mission

My name is Jeff Bertuleit and Props Inc. offers quality and performance in the custom wood propellers I make. Years of experience and feedback go into making the best possible propeller for your special use. I have made over 3,000 propellers dating back to 1985. I have made a propeller for nearly every type of aircraft, even human powered submarines and flight, windmills too.


Contact Information

Telephone
541-265-3032
FAX
541-265-3032
Postal address
354 SE 2nd St.
Newport, OR 97365
Electronic mail
General Information: propsinc@newportnet.com
Webmaster: support@1sthostweb.com

Bob Brock
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Posted Tuesday, May 29, 2012 @ 11:17 PM  

here is the link to Jeff's website.

http://www.propsinc.net/

jb92563
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Posted Thursday, May 31, 2012 @ 10:01 AM  

Can I ask how much they are charging to make one.

I had a prop made at Culver since that is where Collin got his, but it was not Scimitar enough and did not really
look like Collins so I was thinking perhaps I can get a copy from Props Inc as well so it matches his.

When are they going to start making it?

Ray

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

Bob Brock
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Posted Thursday, May 31, 2012 @ 12:30 PM  

I just talked with Jeff this am.... 5/31/12, and my plan it to pick up Collin's prop and give it to Jeff this Sat. (weather permitting)... so you can add-on another copy prop at any time; however, we get a little discount with number. Right now I have three copies ordered. The cost is $ 350. for the prop (I think it is made out of mahogany but we will confirm that on Sat).. if you want a urethane leading edge it is $30-$40 more. Jeff told me the urethane is best if you are going to fly in the rain. I think we are looking at getting the finished props back in 3 or 4 weeks.... but as Jeff said, they are like pancakes... they are done when they are done.
jb92563
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Posted Thursday, May 31, 2012 @ 01:42 PM  

Yes, I'll buy one as well and add the urethane leading edge, I have stones on my dirt strip to deal with and the Urethane LE will help.

I'll also contact him and let him know and provide my payment info, shipping address etc.

I'm in no rush for the prop as I have another to use anyway for now.

Thanks,

Ray

PS: I sent him an email plus a copy of the crush plate with dimensions in case Collins is different.

[Edit by jb92563 on Thursday, May 31, 2012 @ 02:06 PM]

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

Bob Brock
Master Sergeant

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Posted Saturday, June 2, 2012 @ 06:31 PM  

Greetings:

I picked up Collin's prop yesterday and will take it down to PropsInc. next week as my flight was canceled today. Collin says his prop is magic and I agree. I took a few pictures of it along side my factory prop (mounted on N7725). You can really see the difference between the two. Also, you can see that my engine is mounted and we are moving along. I want to finish the panel and wiring before mounting the wing... again, it is coming along. My goal is to fly it then do some of the finish work, like a new canopy and new prop. But before I mount the new prop, I should have some data that can compare it to the factory prop.... it might be a little different from Collins engine since we are not exactly sure how much power mine will generate... 44-45hp??

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=ALBUM&id=5749564505627314321&authkey=Gv1sRgCLKS09rByc_O9QE&feat=email

More later..... Bob

SteveBeaver
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Posted Saturday, June 2, 2012 @ 06:35 PM    YIM

Why do you think the older "scimitar" Culver prop is better than their current straight model? Do you have permission from Culver to duplicate their product?

I'd be glad to loan my straight one to Collin for some comparative testing if people are interested.

Steve

Bob Brock
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Posted Sunday, June 3, 2012 @ 09:37 PM  

Actually I misspoke... not exact copies... indeed we have a few ideas and suggestions for a better prop, and one that fits the aircraft better. Regarding what I think about prop designs would only be a waste of time... I have no idea. It seems to be kind of experimentation until you find something that works, and it seems to work better than the original. Doubt there is a perfect prop.. just compromises that fit flying styles.

Collin's 4 is waiting rebuild.... he may decide to do the wings one year and the fuselage the next... in many ways I wish I had done that so I could have been flying two years ago. Anyway, doubt you can get a comparative test until his ship is flying.... and even then, there are so many variables. I will try to give some impressions between the original Hoffman prop and the new one later this year.

I'll keep the forum posted. Cheers,

SteveBeaver
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Posted Sunday, June 3, 2012 @ 09:48 PM    YIM

OK good. I have been very pleased indeed with my Culver prop, but I too am down for recovering ATM.
Bob Brock
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Posted Sunday, June 10, 2012 @ 10:36 AM  

Greetings.... a bit of an update. Yesterday I met with Jeff at Props Inc. with both my original Hoffman prop and Collin's Culver prop. As many of you know, Culver (I think changed hands) no longer makes the prop like Collin's and although we are making it similar, it will be about 15% different, thus no problem with a copyright even if someone complained which seems really remote given that it is a) discontinued and b) there are so few RF-4 props in the US anyway.

What I found interesting is that Jeff picked up on the differences between the two props and suggested that I try on that he would build that would incorporate all the neat things he has learned over the years. So in addition to the new props ordered that are based on Collin's old Culver prop, Jeff is going to build a totally new prop and let me test it. I think that is what really drives guys like Jeff... and it makes it a challenge rather than a job. Needless to say, I am really looking forward to seeing what performs best in N7725 this summer.

SteveBeaver
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Posted Sunday, June 10, 2012 @ 05:33 PM    YIM

Referring to Rays 5/31 post above with the picture of the crush plate: - I found that (as you would expect) the small holes are the perfect drill guide for the prop bolt holes, but the larger holes, on my hub at least, are precisely the same size as the drive lug holes on the rear face of the prop, and so make a perfect drill guide for those. I wonder if that was intentional? - Probably.

Steve

Bob Brock
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Posted Wednesday, June 27, 2012 @ 09:18 AM  

Jeff made a master of Collin's Culver prop with a few improvements. Rather than make the props we ordered, he want me to test fly all three props.. the original (which is on the aircraft now), Collin's Culver and Jeff's new and improved prop... then he will make the best props based on that information. I can see his logic... but I have to wait until my RF-4 is flying. The good news is that I have been working on it almost full time.. so the wing is mounted. Naturally I ran into challenges that take much more time than I anticipate, like rigging a new system for hanging the aircraft above my Cessna. Anyway, my goal is to make the motor glider fly-in at Minden (July 7th) even if I have some wiring duct taped in place along with other temporary (non critical) solutions. Regards,
jb92563
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Posted Wednesday, June 27, 2012 @ 09:58 AM  

Thats great his designed Prop is going to be optimized by flight trials first.

If he likes to experiment then he should take a look at the Ellipse prop designs to try
something a little less conventional that may yield even greater performance.

I have been finding that my current Culver prop has been getting me a 90mph cruise at 3100 rpm.

I also get about 500 fpm climb at 70 mph.

I thought more of a scimitar shape allowed some twisting/flexing would get a better climb rate at higher climb thrust
and when you level out and your airspeed is higher it would unload a bit and the flex would come out increasing pitch and speed a bit
at cruise settings.

Looking forward to seeing you at Minden... JULY 12-15, 2012

[Edit by jb92563 on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 @ 10:01 AM]

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

dannparks
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Posted Friday, July 6, 2012 @ 04:11 PM  

Bob B.

Have you bolted on your new Props, Inc. prop yet? I wanted to make sure they have the bolt pattern spacing correct before I order one.

Sorry you won't be able to make it to Minden. It was quite an ambitious goal. Next year you'll have company!

--------------------
Dann Parks RF4D #4051 N2188 now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1

Bob Brock
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Posted Saturday, July 7, 2012 @ 09:32 PM  

Dann et. al.,

check out my album under getting N7725 back together and you will see the two props... I have not mounted either and will do so after the annual (hopefully next week) then I want to fly with the original Hoffman for my first few flights since that is the only prop I have had on the RF-4.... then I will check out the other two props and ask Collin to help. No doubt he would like to check out his engine rebuild and see how it performs. I got the ailerons on today and all the bolts and nuts tight.... what a challenge! Had to take off the elevators again and hopefully it will fit. Then some connections and the panel... anyway, it is getting very near ready. By the way, everyone loves the paint scheme copied from you and based on the original design.

Soooooo, prop test will be later this month. Stay tuned.

Bob

dannparks
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Posted Tuesday, December 4, 2012 @ 02:59 AM  

My new Props, Inc. prop arrived yesterday.

It is a very nice maple with a slightly schimitar shape. It is about 2" longer than the stock prop and has a much more pronounced twist in the airfoil from hub to tip. The original prop is surprisingly flat. Jeff calls it 54x31. It fit the Rectimo hub perfectly.

I ran it for a short time (between rain showers) and it got 2900 full-throttle static PRM, and was very smooth. The new engine could turn the original prop to 3200 static RPM. I think the new pitch is just right and I look forward to flying it in the spring. Cost was $345 plus $20 shipping.

[Edit by dannparks on Tuesday, December 4, 2012 @ 03:06 AM]

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Dann Parks RF4D #4051 N2188 now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1

Donald
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Posted Tuesday, December 4, 2012 @ 03:15 AM  

Nice looking prop dann though I'm not sure about the lower static RPM. I presume this is optimised for cruise.
Bob Brock
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Posted Thursday, January 22, 2015 @ 02:12 PM  

Just tried my new prop from Props, Inc... after three props (including the one Collin loaned me) I think it is a perfect match for my engine... 54/34 and looks about like Dann's but a few changes. Jeff cut the prop more near the hub to assist in air starts. It is really nice to have the prop master listen to what I wanted. I do not have a starter like Dann so I have to air start. Also, my engine is more like the original, less power, but Collin rebuilt it doing his magic so it makes a bit more HP. As we know, HP does not necessary mean more speed. I don't have the science behind the prop.. it was more trial and error to make improvements. But I am really happy with how it works. I get a bit more high end speed that with the 53/33 prop from Collin.. and his seems like magic. Cruse is also about 5-8 mph higher. I did not fly both props under the same conditions but I might do that with better weather. The top speed now is about 130-135 in level flight at full power.... using both the airspeed and GPS for reference. Climb is about the same.. 6-700 fpm, but the temp was about 50 degrees F and the last time I did climb tests it was much warmer so the numbers don't mean much. There is almost no vibration though out the power settings. On landing approach I had to check the tach to make sure it was running.

Perhaps this Spring Dann and I can fly together and see which configuration is faster.

dannparks
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Posted Friday, February 13, 2015 @ 04:08 AM  

Glad to see you're flying again and you're happy with your PI prop. Hope we (including Collin) can get together soon. And we need to try to get everybody in the area to Arlington in July.

--------------------
Dann Parks RF4D #4051 N2188 now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1

dannparks
Sergeant Major

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Posted Wednesday, October 14, 2015 @ 00:26 AM  

Well after a year or so of flying, I am believing now that my prop has a bit too much pitch. It does well at high-speed cruise, but I was trying to do a high-performance climb at relatively low speed and the engine was struggling at too-low RPM and it would not take much throttle. Collin gave me his "magic" prop to try and it makes a huge difference. I can get 3100 static RPM and it has great climb performance. It will also take full throttle in a quick climb. 100 MPH cruise is 2850 vs. 2650 for the original prop. I haven't done any top-speed runs.

I'd like to get a new prop from Props Inc. with a couple inches less pitch, but there is some question on pitch numbers. Mine is stamped 54/31 and Bob's (from the same shop) is marked 54/34. I would have expected Bob's to have the same or less pitch. And Collin's is marked 53/33, but there's rarely any correlation between manufacturers. Bob, do you have any insights on the markings, or do you think that your prop does have 3" more pitch than mine?

[Edit by dannparks on Sunday, October 18, 2015 @ 01:38 AM]

--------------------
Dann Parks RF4D #4051 N2188 now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1

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