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SteveBeaver
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Posted Monday, October 8, 2007 @ 07:06 PM    YIM

The time has come to replace my RF4D wire hoop outriggers with the newer nylon style. It seems to me that I will need to make a slot in the leading edge plywood to allow the installation of the backing plate. - It will then be necessary to patch the wood to repair the slot.

Any hints or advice on this procedure?

Steve

Collin
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Posted Tuesday, October 9, 2007 @ 11:43 AM  

Hi,

Here is the outrigger set up am going to use. But I am going to use roller blade wheel with ball bearings. And here is a link for the plans for the brackets. (4-42-03)

Link to the plans
http://www.cfiamerica.com/images/4-42-50%20Outrigger%20Component%20Details.tif

SteveBeaver
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Posted Tuesday, October 9, 2007 @ 12:43 PM    YIM

Thanks Collin. I like those smaller legs and the tapered adapter at the wing end. - The roller blade wheels are so much better than these.

I am studying drawings 4-42-50 - which seems easy enough, 4-42-10, which seems to show a 4mm thick plywood reinforcing plate 80mm x 140mm applied to each side of the spar and item 13, which appears to be the 1mm patch you need to make over the hole created to get at the spar. What is confusing me is drawing 4-42-52. Counterplates A & B, each 1mm thick and scarfed over 30mm. Could these go on the underside of the wing to provide a wooden surface around the hole through which the nylon leg exits?

Steve

Jorgen
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Posted Wednesday, October 10, 2007 @ 02:04 PM  

Hello,
My RF 4, SE-XST (former G-AVNX) has the nylon outrigger modification but it´s a different type of fitting. The Scheonwald-type seems similar to the RF 5 fitting and has to be screwed onto the spar from the rear, correct? SE-XST´s fitting is drilled into the 10th rib from underneath.

Previous-previous owner Mike Wollard, UK did as I mentioned (Maintenance-"Twisted wings" thread) a repair to the port wing D-box which he meticulously documented with photos, and at the same time he upgraded the outriggers. Picture 1 shows the fittings, as you can see the nylon rod sits in the fitting up to but not into the wing, the fitting just has an extended part for fixation in the upper surface of the rib. The second "extended part" is to counter rotational loads, I guess.

Picture 2 shows the underside of the port wing during repairs, leading edge down. The fitting (now painted white) is inserted into a hole drilled from the underside in the 10th rib. The 10th rib (I think it is) is just inside the near aileron edge, and you can se the outriggerfitting just where some fabric has been peeled of towards the leading edge.

The ribs as I understand it are built as boxes, so the inside is empty and the fitting is fastened in the lower and upper "lid" of the rib-box. Í haven´t noticed anything in the way of loosening, so I hope it´s strong enough. Anyway, it seems simpler than making a hole in the D-box to acess the spar. I think I have blueprints of the fittings somewhere if you´re interested.

Just 4 fun, take 5(b)/ Jörgen, SE-XST

SteveBeaver
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Posted Wednesday, October 10, 2007 @ 03:36 PM    YIM

Interesting modification. Thanks.

Collin
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Posted Thursday, August 9, 2012 @ 01:44 AM  

Hello,

A link to Mr. Schönwald R3/4 and RF5/B outriggers.

http://www.fbw-flugzeugbau.de/Flugzeugbau/Eigenfertigung-fuer-RF-3-4-5/Stuetzraeder:::173_176_178.html

--------------------
Collin Gyenes rebuilding RF4D, Flying RF5B

Bob Brock
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Posted Thursday, August 9, 2012 @ 12:14 PM  

Greetings:

Collin loaned me one of the out riggers above and it is very fine quality. Although I am in the process of building something similar, I would like to get an original set. Anyone want to join me so we can save on shipping?

I am going to be in Ireland and England in a few weeks... so if any our our RF-4 friends in the UK could work a deal I might be able to pick them up there... (just a wild thought).

Cheers,

Collin
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Posted Thursday, August 9, 2012 @ 06:50 PM  

Hi,

I would like to get a set for the 5B.

--------------------
Collin Gyenes rebuilding RF4D, Flying RF5B

D. Porter
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Posted Friday, August 10, 2012 @ 01:43 PM  

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Brock
I would like to get an original set. Anyone want to join me so we can save on shipping?

Hi Bob,

By "original set" do you mean the wire hoop style? If so, I'm interested in another set. Let me know what develops.

BTW, my only experience is with the wire hoop style on N1700F, but I find them completely satisfactory on paved surfaces. Wondering what's the motivation for upgrading to another style?

Don

[Edit by D. Porter on Friday, August 10, 2012 @ 03:09 PM]

Bob Brock
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Posted Friday, August 10, 2012 @ 05:36 PM  

Sorry I was not clear... I meant the Flugzeugbau manufactured out riggers.

I will post some pictures in the next few days... I opened up my newly rebuilt wing (boy was that difficult to cut into the new fabric and paint) to access the brackets because I did not mount them correctly... at least not as well as I would have liked. One one of my first flights, my outrigger wheel went sideways and I put too much strain on the bracket... like the one shown below with the Flugzeugbau out riggers (Eugenio gave me two brackets)... anyway, I never liked that such an important part of the landing gear was hidden behind the fabric. Thus I rebuilt the brackets and backing plate that goes on the front side of the wing spar.... I will have some pictures very soon.

Frankly I liked the looks of the wire hoops but my wire wheel brackets were shot and the wood rib holes showed too much wear. I tried to think of a neat way to have retractable outriggers (like the L-13sw) but it required too much weight and cables. I believe the Flugzegbau outriggers are excellent, exp. with the wheel design that castors and allows you to put the aircraft backwards into the hanger. Often it is a matter of keeping it simple. Simple is good.

One of the important lessons in rebuilding has been.... try to find out what others have done (and perhaps why), get as much information as you can, then trust yourself to do what is best for you and your aircraft. Everyone has their own take on modifications. Although I have tried to be true to Rene and his great designs, it is also true that materials and electronics have improved. For example, it might be foolish not to have a GPS in the aircraft. My outrigger brackets will also utilize inspection plates... I want to see what is going on inside the wing and make sure the brackets are strong.

Although the standard nylon rods (about 1" round) used by most RF aircraft (at least the ones I have seen in the US and Europe) work, they seem a bit too bulky. The Flugzengbau design is more elegant and produces (perhaps) less drag. The pictures do not do them justice. Super quality and well designed. The part inside the stainless steel tube (rod to wheel bracket) is machined brass... with "o" rings to keep the lube in, and a nut on the bottom of the shaft (just above the wheel) sets the tension.

Cheers,

jb92563
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Posted Tuesday, August 14, 2012 @ 06:13 PM  

I wondered what effects the outrigger aerodynamic drag the most, the outrigger Shape or the Diameter?

Here is what I found using the drag equation from this source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient#cite_note-6

This chart below gives an idea about the influence of the rod shape:

Some calculation results comparing the sphere/rod shape vs the streamlined shape:

@ 120mph with the 1" diameter nylon rods the outriggers develop about 40 lbs of drag

@ 120mph with the 1/2" diameter fiberglass/carbon rods the outriggers develop about 20 lbs of drag

@ 120mph with the 1" diameter rods with the foam streamlined shape the outriggers develop about 5 lbs of drag

Conclusion:

Granted the exact drag numbers a very approximate here as drag relationship is exponential relationship with speed and there are also the Renolds number factors but it does clearly show where to focus effort to get the best improvement and reductions in drag.

Making the outriggers thinner helps in proportion to the thickness of the rods (ie 50% thinner yields about 50% less drag)

However it is clearly Most effective to Streamline the rods and get the maximum drag reduction.

Since I replaced one of my outriggers with a thinner fiberglass rod I will have to remake my foam streamline shapes for both the 1" nylon rod and a 1/2" fiberglass rod. they will both be 1" wide however and will look the same.

FYI: The streamline shapes I make with a hot wire cutter are the typical foam insulation from the hardware store, covered and secured
to the rods with 2" wide strips of glider gap seal tape.
This holds up well and flexes with the outriggers without breaking or becoming detached yet breaks free if the
outrigger is broken off as I have found out.

I also shortened my outriggers a bit as my dirt airstrip runways have become a bit hollowed and contributed to my breaking of the outrigger as both wheels were firmly riding the dirt sides of my runway during the landing and take off last time when one caught on some higher weeds as I was landing.

The tugs are blowing the dirt out of the center with the propwash and the gliders are making the center softer due to the increased traffic.

[Edit by jb92563 on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 @ 06:35 PM]

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

Jorgen
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Posted Wednesday, August 15, 2012 @ 02:33 AM  

Great post, Ray.
I also think a "shorter" outrigger is better, but I'm not aware of a reference to what the original design length of the outriggers (=hoops) were. As Eugenio noted somewhere a clearance of at least 15 cm (on the "up"-wing outrigger on flat ground) is not only working but desirable in my opinion. From memory I have about 20 cm clearance.

I have thought of retractable outriggers too, but I don't like cables and stuff either. Maybe remote controlled, light electric actuators? At least if you're on grass it's not a catasrophe if the outriggers would fail to extend.

On the other hand I like the faired rod-type outrigger looks, it sort of enhances the glider appearance. One design problem is that I'm not sure foam flexible enough to follow the rod movments (not to cause fatigue breaks- ask me how I know this!) retains the faired shape enough to really give a 0.04 lb (by the way, that's about 0.02 kg-we're SI units with Fourniers, right? ) resistance in high speed. Would you mind posting a picture of how you made your fairings, Ray? Thanks.

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

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Posted Wednesday, August 15, 2012 @ 10:58 AM  

I dont have pictures of my foam cutting setup yet so in the mean time here is a link to a generic DIY setup for around $30.

http://www.instructables.com/id/EK8Q92824BEP286S6S/?ALLSTEPS

I use a thin nichrome wire in mine as it tolerate the heat range better and lasts longer.

If you use guitar wire then use the thinnest possible as folks have been burning up the transformer because it cannot provide the amps to heat the thicker wire in the article.

Also, you don't want to get the wire red hot as it is too hard to make clean cuts, you get it only hot enough to advance through the foam with a steady movement of about 1/2 inch per second or slower and hot enough that the wire does not "drag" behind in the center.

You need plenty of tension on the bow as the wire expands in length as it heats and tension has to be maintained.

I simply cut a template out of carboard for both ends of the white foam blank and use long drywall screws or glue to secure the templates to the foam ends.

Then guide the hot wire along the template at both ends and viola, you have your fairing.

The key to the fairing's flexibility is to use white insulation foam and wide glider gap seal tape as a covering for the foam and it will keep its shape perfectly yet is incredibly flexible and will return to its original shape after deflecting.

Honestly in the time to write this little description I could have made several fairings.

If anyone wants the foam fairings I can easily make them.

You can even e-mail me your own streamline shape pattern if you want and I will cut it for you.

The last fairings I made stood up very well and stayed in place well. They absolutely do not create any stress points in the fairing as they are very flexible the way I made them.

Foam cut sample (Not the gear fairing). Dont use the harder Blue foam in this picture, use the more flexible white foam.

More later

--------------------
Ray
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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, August 15, 2012 @ 11:34 AM  

Hi Folks,

We have at least two outrigger threads running concurrently, but since I'm talking about modified ones, I'm posting this stuff here.
I posted it all earlier, many years ago, but I guess that info must have been lost when the server went down that time.

So...

For about 6 to 8 years, to minimise weight and drag I have been using shortened, faired outrigger legs with self-made wheel holders and rollerblade wheels. The wheel holders are made from stainless steel of about 1¼ inch diameter, simply cut with an angle grinder like this. The rollerblade wheels last for more than 5 years (250 flying hours) PROVIDED they are carefully aligned fore-and-aft, in line with a wing rib and the direction of forward travel.

Be sure to fit the retaining bolt fore-and-aft (not side-to-side) to minimise drag.
You will also minimise drag by having the bigger nut on the front and the smaller cap-screw head to the rear, although this is contrary to normal aviation practice.

The foam fairing is cut from a kid's swimming pool floating board.
I tried upholstery foam, but that was too floppy.
My highly sophisticated cutting tool is a serrated bread knife. An electric one works even better, although it makes more crumbs.
I cut out a long, thin triangle, and then ran a piece of heated one-inch copper plumbing tubing along the short edge to melt it and make it a bit convex to fit neatly against the back of the one-inch nylon leg.

The foam is attached with ordinary PVC duct tape, wrapped around in spiral fashion.

This combination stands up well to being bent, as you can see from this close-up from a photo of my wheel-up landing.

I hope that's all you need to know.

And 'no' I couldn't measure any performance improvement, but it only takes an afternoon and surely cannot be a bad thing.

Yours, Bob

[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 @ 11:36 AM]

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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Sunday, October 6, 2013 @ 10:10 AM  

Hi Guys,

Re outrigger leg length, the drawing Steve gave a link to above says the nylon rods should be 500mm, 5cm or half a metre long.

Steve, please do you have any photos of this work you did?

We are about to do the same thing with G-AWGN.
The drawings all seem fairly understandable, but I have seen a couple of Fourniers with triangular ply plates under their wings rather than the rectangular ones shown in 4-42-52.
like this:

and this:

Triangular seems more sensible to me, because you don't have an unsupported corner.
Did you go with rectangular or triangular?

Yours, Bob

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Posted Sunday, October 6, 2013 @ 04:23 PM  

Following on from Ray's post on outrigger leg drag while shamelessly plagiarising Don's wheel fitting, I've come up with this refined design.

Because we operate from farm airstrips and Britain's legendarily bumpy grass airfields, we have a history of broken legs and fittings, so I've upsized from the standard 50mm scooter wheel to the more rare 60mm wheels (with sealed bearings and matching red colour) for a jolt-free ride over the ruts. This means my wheel fitting has to be rather long, but by extending it rearwards into a spat (wheelpant) and fairing its upper edge into the pre-existing foam leg fairing, with luck I can keep its drag relatively low.

This is strictly a rough prototype.

Yours, Bob

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Posted Sunday, October 6, 2013 @ 07:06 PM  

From the point of view of drag, this would probably be a better shape, with the bottom edge parallel to the ground.

But without any nice curves, I don't think Rene would approve of the shape.

Still experimenting...

Yours, Bob

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Posted Sunday, October 6, 2013 @ 07:38 PM    YIM

Bob,

I'll take a picture next time I am at the hangar. The wing is currently uncovered so your timing is good. Perhaps this step-by-step will help too:

1. Construct the new gear mount from the plans. Its a pretty simple design and easy enough to make. If you know some one with a TIG welder that would be good. I brazed mine. Either way you want to avoid distortion of the underside of the bracket. The piece that will sit on the spar web.
2. Prime and paint it with something that will protect it from corrosion for ever
3. Cut out the metal rectangular flat plate that acts as a backing plate on the forward side of the spar
4. Drill the holes in the corner of the backing plate and the gear mount together (thus ensuring they line up)
5. Install a self locking nut plate in each of the four holes in the backing plate using flush rivets: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornutsmk1000.php?clickkey=5745

Now you are ready to install it.

6. Cut two rectangular pieces of 3mm ply the same width as the backing plate, but the exact full height of the wing spar
7. Drill a hole in each corner of the two ply rectangles corresponding to the holes in the backing plate and the bracket
8. Cut a slot in the underside of the plywood 'D' box leading edge covering. The slot should be just big enough to slip one ply rectangle through and should be lined up with the front face of the spar

Consider the way the spar is constructed. There is a spruce spar at the top, a spruce spar at the bottom, and empty space in between. The front and rear of the spar are boxed in with 1 mm ply front and back. You are going to drill some holes through the spar, but those holes will pass through the 1mm ply and empty space ONLY. You will not be drilling through the spruce spars. To make sure this is the case, ensure that the brackets/backing plates are exactly centered (vertically) on the spar

9. Glue one of the 3 mm ply reinforcing plates to the aft face of the spar When the glue is dry, drill though the spar using the ply reinforcement as a guide. Do whatever you need to ensure that the holes you drill are absolutely perpendicular to the spar. I used a piece of scrap 2x4 as a guide

Now comes the tricky part

10. Using a slow drying glue (such as T88 epoxy) slide the second reinforcing rectangle through the slot in the leading edge and into position on the front face of the spar. Use the four bolts you will eventually use to secure the bracket to help ensure the ply plate is exactly aligned over the four mounting holes. Once in position, allow the glue to dry before sliding the backing plate into place on the front of the spar/reinforcing plate, and the mounting bracket on the rear.
11. Tighten the bolts (I used AN-3A bolts) until just snug. Do not over-tighten or it will distort the ply plates and reduce strength
12. Close the slot you cut in the leading edge. Simply scarf the slot and patch with 3mm ply. You don't need to go crazy with a 10:1 scarf. The slot is very small and we are about to reinforce it anyway. Make the best job you can.
13. Temporarily install an outrigger leg
14. Cut a piece of 1mm ply approximately 9 inches square. Position it on the underside of the wing so that about 4 inches overlaps the underside of the main spar and covers the slot in the leading edge, and the repair you made to it. The side of the rectangle should completely cover the cap of the adjacent rib. Hard to explain, but this rectangle of 1mm ply is now supported on two sides: The front and one side.
15. Cut a 1 1/2" dia hole in the 1mm ply for the gear leg to pass through
16. Glue the 1mm ply rectangle to the underside of the spar and the rib.
17. Sand all four sides of the ply, particularly the leading edge, until it blends seamlessly with the underside of the wing leading edge. One corner of the ply will be unsupported. Make a nice radius on that corner so that it is no longer square

Now when you recover the wing, there will now be something for the fabric to attach to and the fabric around the gear leg hole will not be flapping around and fraying. You hav also reinforced the leading edge and more than compensated for ht slot you cut/repaired.

That's how I did it anyway. It sounds more complicated than it really is and once you get into it you will find it to be pretty obvious. You can always telephone me if you get stuck.

Steve

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Posted Monday, October 7, 2013 @ 05:29 AM  

That's brilliant Steve,

Thank you so much for your explanation.

In one sense we're lucky, because my blue HDO came with the sockets, back-plate with nut-plates and Allen screws, all nicely plated and sourced from EIS. I'm not sure why the previous owner bought this lot, because HDO was already fitted with the later type sockets, but now they will come in useful on WGN.

Thanks again for the check-list, and if you can get some photos, they would probably be very useful too.

I do hope you're flying your Fournier again soon.

Yours, Bob

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Posted Friday, January 24, 2014 @ 04:04 PM  

So, while being deprived of my beloved aeroplane, I've been making some 'improvements'.
Again, this is a development of Donald's wheel-holder.
Now I'm (eventually) going to be flying from a proper airfield, I don't need the big wheels, so I've gone with standard 78mm rollerblade wheels.

--------------------

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Posted Wednesday, October 8, 2014 @ 10:50 AM  

Outrigger tie-down points.

Somewhere on one of the several outrigger threads we've discussed whether it is better for the upper securing bolt through the leg and its wing socket should be horizontal, in line with the direction of flight, or transverse, in line with the wing's chord.

I've now decided that, since the new sockets didn't come with pre-drilled holes, I shall go with a diagonal attachment hole.

The bolt won't be a simple bolt, but the pin of a one-inch stainless steel shackle.

So now I have a tie-down point under each wing!

All I need now is to have my Fournier returned, so that I can finish this work (and all the other reassembly work I've been lumbered with!)

Yours, Bob.

[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 @ 11:53 AM]

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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Tuesday, September 1, 2015 @ 06:14 PM  

So here's the eventual leg, heated and bent to give some suspension bounce, with faired wheel and foam leg fairing:

Now it's temporarily taped with PVC tape (it will eventually be covered with white Oratex)

...and here it is with the removable tie-down shackle:

When I have done a few, more important, other things, I shall probaby remove the PVC tape, trim the sides of those foam wedges to a more aerodynamic afterbody shape, and cover the whole lot with a single piece of white Oratex fabric.

[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Sunday, November 8, 2015 @ 06:08 AM]

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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Sunday, November 8, 2015 @ 06:04 AM  

We have many threads on this Forum relating to our outriggers, which suggests that most of us have experienced outrigger problems:

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=ZKc0qlloL4CgVYjGeShbKL8W4w&forum=11&thread=1121

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=ZKc0qlloL4CgVYjGeShbKL8W4w&forum=11&thread=1002

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=ZKc0qlloL4CgVYjGeShbKL8W4w&forum=11&thread=997

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=ZKc0qlloL4CgVYjGeShbKL8W4w&forum=17&thread=435

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=ZKc0qlloL4CgVYjGeShbKL8W4w&forum=18&thread=740

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=kMcveELnYYVRypGCXSAP7511gT&forum=17&thread=289

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=8LuHbgISlpSRnuFgP36H5yc9p1&forum=11&thread=527

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=ZKc0qlloL4CgVYjGeShbKL8W4w&forum=11&thread=958

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=ZKc0qlloL4CgVYjGeShbKL8W4w&forum=17&thread=977

Unfortunately, the oldest one, entitled 'Outrageous Outriggers', and posted I think by Jorgen seems to have disappeared, so I will continue with my thoughts and solutions on this one...

While rectifying all the dismantling devastation that had been wrought on my poor little Wagon I had plenty of time to think about its outrigger legs and fittings. It is clear both from this Forum and generally talking with other Fournier pilots that our outriggers have always caused problems. Many people have reported suffering from broken legs, but in nearly 800 hours of RF4D flying I have never had a leg break, even back in 2007 when I landed wheel-up

However, I have had the top fittings snap twice and they've become distorted several more times.

Pondering on this problem and a practical solution, I have come to believe that one of the main issues is the lack of springiness in the legs themselves. The original outriggers were curved D-shaped or rearward-swept thin steel springs with presumably plenty of bounce in them, whereas the modern nylon legs are stiff and unyielding. This means that any stress suffered by the wheels bouncing across rough ground or up onto bitumen, concrete or tarmac taxiways or runways is transmitted directly up the legs into the fittings and ultimately into your main spar. I really don't think this is a good idea.

After my wheel-up landing in HDO the legs didn't snap but they did take up a permanent curve, which subsequently gave a noticeably softer ride than the straight legs on Wagon. Because the lower part of each curved leg hits the air at a shallower angle its drag should also be slightly reduced.

So I modified Wagon's new legs to give them rather more shock absorption as well as reducing their drag.

The standard leg is 500mm/50cm/half a metre/ 20ins long.
The correct fittings have an 18° rake back from the spar, but the wing's incidence plus the fuselage's deck angle reduce this to a mere couple of degrees angle relative to the ground (and Jorgens' with the incorrect Wollard fittings actually face forward, which cannot be good).

I established off the interweb that nylon can be heated and bent, although there is a fairly narrow temperature band in between softening it enough to bend and causing it to bubble and become embrittled. So I clamped into my vice the part of each leg that would be in its socket and slowly, gently and thoroughly heated up the rest of the leg. This took about half an hour, or possibly a bit longer. By looping rope around the leg several times I was able to rig a 'pulley' system that would impart much more bending force that I could apply. More importantly, that force would stay constant while I allowed the legs to cool gently (actually, overnight).

The result: two nicely bent, springy and aerodynamic outrigger legs.
If you want a more springy result, you can simply use longer legs and bend them a little more.
I hope this easy modification will put an end to all our outrigger woes.
The final result appears a little earlier in this thread

Happy Fournicating, Bob

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