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Fredrik S
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Posted Monday, April 4, 2016 @ 08:31 AM  

Hi Guys.
As most of you already know we have completley rebuilt XSK:s engine after the propstrike.
The engine is ready for mounting in our little 4 and when we have done that we will have to break it in.
So now to my question since neither of us have really done this before, the manual that Paul posted under useful PDF http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=tAsgIBpsjEo36qTQh7EVYyp0e9&forum=13&thread=1075 for an Aerovee engine is the first manual i have gotten my hands on that tells you how to break in the engine (p.61-62).
Is the description in the manual the best way to do it or do any of you other enginewizards have any tips that is more applicable for our Limbach 1700 EA engine?

--------------------
Best regards
/Fredrik Svanberg
RF4D serial#4104 SE-XSK

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Tuesday, April 5, 2016 @ 09:06 AM  

Hi Fredrik,

Before even starting your engine you should read this important information on oil from Dave Bland:

Well Oil Be Damned

Now then chaps what do we know about oil?
Well it goes in golden and comes out black after 50 hrs.

I think this probably sums up most of our understanding of oil and if you use the latest expensive branded multigrade then its got to be good, the advertising has told us it is. Not necessarily!

About 5 years ago our group RF4, G-AWLZ started running badly and after exhausting all other options the engine was removed and split, all the camshaft lobes were badly worn and as the aircraft lived in a T hangar on top of a damp hill at Nympsfield and was becoming under utilized it was suspected that corrosion pitting had occurred and that that had caused the wear.
The engine had been running on Castrol GTX 20w50 or Exxon Elite 20w50 as we used in the tugs for as long as I could remember.

In June this year the camplug (a nasty plastic thing in our crankcase) failed resulting in the engine needing to be split, the camshaft was showing more signs of wear than would be expected after 5 years and 200hrs.
The engine had run on Exxon Elite 20w50 and Air Total Aero20w50 since rebuild apart from the first 50 hrs when it ran a straight Exxon oil as use on the tugs when running in.

A new 1835cc engine was built around the crank and conrods with a new case and all new parts from Stateside Tuning who have a fine reputation as engine builders, like John Maher Racing, but more accessible being in Morton-in-Marsh.
The engine was built to the book, smothered in cam lub and pre oiled before first start after which it was run to the cam manufacturers break in schedule.
Performance on the break in flight was fine, temp and pressure good when after 1hr 40 I got an uncommanded reduction in rpm and so was rejoining the circuit when suddenly the engine ran very rough and I expected it to stop. At this point the oil pressure had increased and temperature fallen.
Investigation revealed the camshaft and followers were destroyed and presumably in very short order, it must have been a manufacturing issue surely?
Almost every VW based engine that my engine builder has worked on has had cam wear to some degree apart from Limbach, another engine building friend in Italy said that he had seen similar problems becoming more common too.
The oil used was Air Total Aero 100, sold as a straight mineral oil for running in engines.

A little time spent on Google revealed that premature cam wear in 'flat tappet engines' like the VW and other 'classic' engines was pretty common with the common assumption being that production problems with the cam or followers were to blame just as we did.
However, the real culprit is the oil, yes that's right, the oil and no I did'nt believe it to start with.

It happens that a friend of another Fournier owning friend is Technical Manager at Millers Oils so I told him what had happened and he came straight back with it being down to the oil and lack of additives required by the engine design.
At that point I mentioned one of the things I had read and he said that he knew and respected John Maher and that his article could be taken at face value.
Hence google 'John Maher Racing, tech talk, flat cams and pitted lifters' and you will discover the importance of Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate in your oil. (Loads of other stuff on it on net)

Due to environmental issues and the fact it destroys catalytic converters ZDDP has been refined out of oils over the years and modern API SN rated oils for modern engines don't contain it.
A page that I found online from the 1978 Beetle owners manual says to use API SE rated oil, the Fournier manuals give no such information re API rating and neither does the Rectimo manual.
Limbach in their L1700 & L2000 manuals (revised 1992) say in section 9 to use 'Brand Name mineral oil or semi synthetic but NOT fully synthetic with an API SG or SH rating' with the chart showing SAE20W50 being about right for the UK temperatures.
They also put out Tech Bulletin 48 in 1995 but this was to reiterate section 9 of the manual as they were aware of problems with 'cheap' SE rated oil.

Now I knew nothing about API rating but it stands for American Petroleum Institute and the S or C rating don't really mean much (car or truck) while the last letter is the important one, starting at A it rises with blending changes and effectively dates the oil blend, we are now at N.
So when the Fournier manuals were written back in the late 60's the 'Brand Name' oil was the right brew with all the correct wear additives for the engine design, nearly 50 years later the oil blend is completely different and while it might still say GTX or whatever on the can, it probably also says API SN and hence its not the same stuff in the can that the engine needs.

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Tuesday, April 5, 2016 @ 09:14 AM  

Now having learned an expensive lesson, I am going to be running whatever oil James Calvert at Stateside is sending me along with all the bits needed for another engine build.
I can only recommend that you do some research and draw your own conclusions from all the information on the net, using the latest 'super oil' that is no doubt brilliant in you Audi, BMW etc could be killing your VW based engine with the same being true of 'Aero' oils.

Dave Bland

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Tuesday, April 5, 2016 @ 09:20 AM  

There is plenty of information on breaking-in a new engine here:

http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=RIbY0RP4AhmHwWcM5HHbXrcmes&forum=13&thread=406

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Donald
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Posted Tuesday, April 5, 2016 @ 02:29 PM  

As to oil for breaking in, I'm presently using this stuff: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/bpo-009-7120/overview/
Has that ZDDP stuff if I recall correctly.
Fredrik S
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Posted Wednesday, April 6, 2016 @ 05:00 AM  

Thank you for the info Bob!
As for the oil of choice we got a can of mineral oil 15W-40 from the company that checked and fixed our crankshaft and cylinder heads wich seems to meet Limbachs requirements when it comes to oils and it is the same oil they use when they are breaking in the same type of engines in their shop.
So i am not that worried that we have the wrong type of oil, although your answer has a lot of really good and important information that i appreciate .
Limbach has in the latest revision stated that the oil should be brand-name oils based on mineral or partially synthetic oil but no fully synthetic. They also say that the oil must comply with at least API-SG or API-SH specs aswell as Volkswagen standard VW 501 01 or VW 500 00.
The oil we have meets the requirements.

I thank you for the info and the link. What i get from that thread is that the best way to break in the engine is to follow Eugenios protocol when the engine is in the aircraft

Quote:
I usually do some break-in on the ground with the engine on the aircraft or with a bench test. The test protocol I use is the following: start engine, 1500 RPM for 5', 2000 RPM for 5', 2500 RPM for 5', 1800 RPM for 15', 2500 RPM for 2', idle for 2', then shutoff and check for leaks or loosen parts.
After that, start and reach 2500 RPM, slow down and register idle and idle mixture, full throttle to see the max static RPM.
At this point if the engine is on the bench test I will repeat the test, or if it is on the aircraft I will test fly it for about one hour overhead the airfield running it not below 2000 RPM, usually 10' at 2500 RPM, 10' at 2000 RPM and so on.
What is very important is not to overheat the heads or let them cool too suddendly. I use the same oil I use on all my engines, a 20w60.

In any case do not baby your engine or you will glaze the cylinder walls.

Eugenio

It seemed that both you, Donald, Collin and the others agreed that it was a properly good procedure if i undersood it correctly?

[Edit by Fredrik S on Wednesday, April 6, 2016 @ 05:21 AM]

[Edit by Fredrik S on Wednesday, April 6, 2016 @ 06:52 AM]

--------------------
Best regards
/Fredrik Svanberg
RF4D serial#4104 SE-XSK

Fredrik S
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Posted Thursday, April 14, 2016 @ 04:07 AM  

Quote:
Originally posted by Donald

As to oil for breaking in, I'm presently using this stuff: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/bpo-009-7120/overview/
Has that ZDDP stuff if I recall correctly.

Hi Donald.
Thanks for the tip. it seems that they don't ship this oil to sweden though . I´ve tried to find a distributor here but had no luck.

I am possible to get a hold of this however http://lucasoil.com/products/engine-builder-lubricants/high-zinc-engine-break-in-oil
But i am not sure that is suitable for our engine eventhough it seems to be, there's no info on if it is a mineral, semi-synthetic or synthetic oil. So i'm not sure that i dare to use it

How long did you use the break-in oil before you changed the oil to normal oil?

My plan is to run through Eugenios protocol first on ground.
Recheck the propeller bolt torque then fly according to his protocol.
After that (About 2h of runtime): empty the oil, retorque the cylinder heads, rocker arm supports, recheck the valve clearance etc. and fill up with new oil.
Fly for 10 tacho hours: change and inspect the oil and check the valve clearance.
Do 25h inspection according to Limbach maintenance manual.
Do 50hr inspection according to Limbach maintenance manual and after that fly as we have always done .

--------------------
Best regards
/Fredrik Svanberg
RF4D serial#4104 SE-XSK

Donald
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Posted Thursday, April 14, 2016 @ 04:11 PM  

Frederik,

I had not considered that Brad Penn oil would be difficult to get hold of. The guy who has just inspected my engine packed 3 US quarts in the crate when it came home with the recommendation that I run it for 15 hours before switching to what I'd been using before. So far I'm about halfway through that.

I'd say that the Lucas oil you link to would be perfectly good for your purpose. I expect Limbach have recommendations for grades but if not I think my preference would be for SAE 30.

I'm not sure there is any real need to change the oil after just a couple of hours, but others may advise differently. This is what I will switch to after the 15 hours, a 'Classic' 20w50 motor oil http://www.commaoil.com/passenger-vehicles/products/view/262

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Friday, April 15, 2016 @ 03:08 AM  

Hi Guys,

By pure chance, that Comma Classic Vehicle oil is what I have just bought Wagon for this season. I love that it comes in a tin can too, not nasty plastic.

Multigrade is the way to go: thin when it's cold and you're swinging the propeller to get the engine started, but thick when the engine is hot so it doesn't seep out and the engine's oil pressure stays nice and high. I'm using 20/50 in both England and Australia because it's easy to find, but I would use a 10/40 or 10/50 in England if I was flying in the winter and a 20/60 in Australia if I could find any.

Good luck Fredrik; do let us know how things go.

Happy Fournicating, Bob

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Fredrik S
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Posted Friday, April 15, 2016 @ 07:03 AM  

Hi guys.
Thanks for the input

Then i will talk to the others and probably buy the lucas oil.
I will go with Bob and buy the multigrade 20W-50 in that case.
We always run our engine on multigrade oil so i think it is the way to go.

As for the oilchange we got the recommendation from the company that checked our crankshaft to change oil no later then after about 5h runtime. That is why i planned the changes at that interval (plus we won't have that much oil coming out of the valve covers/cylinder heads when retorqing the cylinderheads if the engine is emptied)
However there might be a good idea to keep using the break in oil until the planned 10h check and fill it with normal oil after that if you got the recommendation to use it for about 15h.

This is why i love the forum, everybody helps each other and there's so much knowledge to take part of.

I will keep you posted on how it goes as it nears the startup day.
Next problem to solve for us is that the enginge mount bushings in XSK seems to bee smaller than what the drawing says.
In the drawing it is stated to have an outer diameter of 26mm (so we bought bushings with that outer measurement) but yesterday when we checked, the bushings in XSK is 24,3mm in outer diameter.
So we will try to solve that problem and then we have got a go ahead to mount the engine in the airframe again

--------------------
Best regards
/Fredrik Svanberg
RF4D serial#4104 SE-XSK

Martin Hill
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Posted Saturday, April 16, 2016 @ 01:02 PM  

Quote:
ZDDP has been refined out of oils over the years and modern API SN rated oils for modern engines don't contain it.

I am sorry to say Bob that your statement about levels of ZDDP in API SN rated oil isn’t strictly correct.
The fact is you can get SN oils with high levels of ZDDP and conversely SE/SL oils with very low levels. Surprised? I was and I only discovered this a few weeks ago.

On the Exxon Mobil Technical Website in response to concerns from muscle car owners about levels ZDDP in modern oils and the effect on solid lifters. They say use Mobil 1 15W/50 which is for “Racing and flat tappet applications” and they provide a list of ZDDP content of all their oils. The 15W/50 is an API SN oil and the ZDDP level is only fractionally less than Valvoline VR1. Forget for the moment that Mobil 1 is a full synthetic and not suitable for VWs, it led me to investigate.

I looked up the spec for SN. The headline figures for Phosphorous are min/max 0.06/0.08%. The level of Zinc is not specified but tends to present in slightly higher proportions. In the very small print footnotes though there are two key statements. First, if the oil is not also ILSAC (International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee) GF-5 rated there are no upper limits in ZN/P content and second the limit is non-critical, meaning it doesn’t have to comply on Zn/P.

Going back to the Exxon table it lists other specs for their oils. Sure enough the high Zn/P oils are not GF-5 rated. This is the key.

So you might have an SN oil that is actually the same old SL oil but with a sneaky label change!
Note also Valvoline say their VR1 (declared as an SL oil on the label) is “for use in any car, light truck, van, or SUV where API “SN” is recommended”.

The important component in ZDDP for engine wear is the Zinc, which creates a microscopic protective film although it is sacrificial and continually wears. Now here is really disturbing news. I was aware of but hadn’t recognised the significance of it until Matt Hill pointed it out, as he has spoken to them, but Castrol have reduced the levels of Zinc in their Classic 20W/50 oil from 0.13% to a minimum 0.08%. This is API SE rated and “approved” by Limbach.

Bottom line – you don’t know what is or isn’t in an oil of any rating and whether it’s good or bad for your engine unless you have the technical specification and know what it means.

There is an interesting paper by Mosey et al that throws up another worrying discovery. In trying to find out how and why ZDDP works (seriously it’s been used for 70 years and nobody really understands how it works) they found that Calcium tends to displace the Zinc and increase wear. Calcium is used as a detergent in most oils.
So while Valvoline VR1 might have significantly more Zinc in it than Castrol XL it also has almost double the Calcium! What’s the effect? Nobody knows for sure.

On a positive note though they found that Boron has a similar effect to Zinc and doesn’t damage cats. Some new oils now have Boron in them rather than Zinc. That’s good but you won’t find reference to it on the label either.

You can get ZDDP as an additive if you are worried e.g. STP Oil Treatment. But beware too much Phosphorous (i.e ZDDP) meaning over 0.2%, is known to attack the grain boundaries in iron leading to spalling and breakup of cam and lifter surfaces!!!!
So if your oil already has ZDDP in it you may do much more harm than good adding more.

It appears about 0.13% Zinc is about right, 0.08% is likely too low (unless there is Boron as well) and over 0.18% is likely bad as it comes with a slightly higher level of Phosphorous.

Also change the oil every 25hours, not 50. This way you will keep sufficient Zinc in the engine before it is depleted.

Having built an engine I am not sure if I did the right thing regarding oil so really depressed this subject. The only solice I have is that it will take me less time to rebuild than to build and maybe the oil I used initially was OK since its not a GF-5 oil.

--------------------
RF5 #5107 G-BEVO

Jorgen
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Posted Sunday, April 17, 2016 @ 02:07 AM  

Hi,
thanks for all inputs, deeply unnerving to hear about Lima Zulu's ordeal but hope the cause has been found. So we need to check the actual content of Zinc that should be 0,13%, Phosphorous not more than 0,2% and not too much Calcium and it all affects surface protection. I need to buy more oil soon so this is all good information.

Ehh, what would the Liqui-Moly (Molybdenium Disulfide) that I add to the oil do? Perhaps increase surface protection?

May the 4s be with you/ Jörgen

P.S. Hope to see you all at Amboise!

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Monday, April 18, 2016 @ 07:13 AM  

Hi Martin,

It is very very good of you to have gone to all the time and trouble researching this information and then publishing your findings.
I was very lazy and merely copied and pasted the information that Dave Bland had made available to those of us on his e-mail address list here in England.
I believe that this technical information originally came from John Maher — the racing Volkswagen engine specialist up in Scotland.

Now I need to recheck the technical specification information on that Comma multigrade oil I bought last week.

Meanwhile I have a couple of peripheral queries.

1) Presumably molybdenum disulphide does much the same thing as zinc since it is a lubricant in its own right as well as an additive?
I ask this because Barry Smith (who went to all that huge trouble decades ago to devise an all-attitude lubrication system for his Volkswagen engines) said that it was cam and valvetrain wear that brought the lubrication issue to his attention. As an easy alternative to going to all the time, bother and expense of devising a similar system I simply added molybdenum disulphide to my oil 13 years ago and have been flying full-throttle, all-attitude, zero oil-pressure aerobatics in that 40 year old, thousand-hour Rectimo ever since without any sign of wear anywhere. it has now completed 1385 hours of its published 1500 hour life and is still running well.

2) Does anybody else remember the problems that Lycoming had with its camshafts and cam followers in the 1970s that required owners and operators to add a special additive to their oils for some years until the lubricant manufacturers did this themselves? I don't know but I am guessing that the particular additive was in fact ZDDP but under a trade name.

Meanwhile I wish everybody a very happy, friction-free summer of Fournication.

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Martin Hill
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Posted Monday, April 18, 2016 @ 05:50 PM  

Not lazy at all Bob. Yours was the general understanding and mine until a few weeks ago. The dodges and subterfuge oil companies employ is really hidden in very small print or careful omissions.

According to the rules an SN oil should indeed have reduced levels of ZDDP and be better for cats. The discovered fact though is that some brands are high in ZDDP and not doing what you think they might in your car.

I am no expert but can repeat the facts of science (not self appointed forum experts) I have read.

ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate) was added to early engines as a corrosion protector. It’s the Phosphorous that is the active corrosion protector. The ZDDP breaks down with Sulphur in the oil under pressure and temperature to produce Zinc Phosphate (ZnP). This is what creates the “anti-wear” layer. The way the layer appears to work is complicated but is by modification of the oil shear layer between the moving parts. It also deposits a Zn film to the surface.

The oil API specs only limit the levels of Phosphorous, but the most practical form of introducing it is by using ZDDP, which is a liquid. So a level of Phosphorous implies a level of Zinc and hence the important Zinc Phosphate. The point is you can’t create the Zinc Phosphate in any other way than using the two elements together. So limit Phosphorous and you can’t get the Zinc in either.

I do know the answer to your two questions though.

1) Molybdenum Disulphide is a friction modifier. According to Mosey et al. it has no influence on ZDDP. They are completely separate and have no effect on the function of each other.
MoS2 like other friction modifiers tend to fill the microscopic roughness of surfaces. I have always wondered whether it might glaze cylinders as it is doing the opposite of what cylinder honing is supposed to do, but have no idea.

2) The Lycoming additive is LW16702 which is variously Tricresyl Phosphate or Triphenyl Phosphate (because it says so on the bottles!). It’s the Phosphate again and is used for corrosion protection (as long as you don’t put too much in). Its not ZDDP and does not have the same effect since its got no Zinc in it.
The reason Lycoming needed it is because Lycoming cams and lifters corrode easily if stood for any time. This is because the cam is in the top of the engine and the oil runs off in time and any moisture also is at the top of the engine.
The VW cam is at the bottom and benefits from oil running on to it from the bearings and crank so doesn’t suffer the same.

--------------------
RF5 #5107 G-BEVO

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Posted Tuesday, April 19, 2016 @ 10:51 PM  

Hi,

Valvoline racing oil and motorcycle oil are still the old formulas.

Collin

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Posted Thursday, May 5, 2016 @ 03:13 PM  

Sincerely I never used any particular oil neither for running in nor for normal use after the first hours, and I never had any kind of problems. I normally use semi sinthetic multigrade oil, ranging from 10w40 to 20w60 and possibly avoid "special oils for racing engines" as I always say, take the cheapest you can find, for sure it is not synthetic. At now I have built and rebuilt some 20 to 30 engines and the only one that had problems was a Rectimo who broke a valve destroying the piston, rod and camshaft, but this engine was overhauled by someone else (a well known german producer of aircraft engines) and had a similar problem some years before it happened.

Eugenio

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Posted Sunday, May 8, 2016 @ 06:19 AM    YIM

I have never used a multigrade oil in aircooled VeeDubs. I always use a straight 30 grade. They are not designed for multigrades and never synthetics. The quickest way to kill a Dub is to put synthetics or additives in there.

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It takes 1.460 bolts to build an aircraft and 1 nut to spread it over the landscape

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Sunday, May 8, 2016 @ 05:07 PM  

Hi Roger,

If that's a joke, then great. It's good to see somebody else on here with a sense of humour.

On the other hand, if you actually meant what you say, then I politely have to beg to differ in some regards.

I do agree with your "never synthetics" statement. Full synthetic oils are completely inappropriate and will indeed 'kill' a VW.

However, multigrades out-perform monogrades every time. When they were introduced there was a lot of suspicion, because folk didn't understand them, and some people even (wrongly) felt you couldn't add a multigrade to a monograde (presumably confusing the dangers of mixing immiscible mineral and vegetable [mostly castor] based oils.)

Multigrades were also called 'viscostatic', which I regard as a better descriptor. A 15/50 multigrade changes its viscocity much less than a monograde, say a 30W, so the multigrade is thinner when it's cold — 15W, when you need to turn over the engine and then get the oil circulating as quickly as possible once it's started. But it stays as viscous as 50W oil to keep your oil pressure high when the engine is hot and a monograde 30W will be thinner than water. So multigrade oils will always be better for any engine, and particularly a hand-started Rectimo VW, than any monograde.

And the Manual Rectimo 4 AR 1200 Engine, Edition: Oct. - 1967 clearly states:
Motor oil of trade marks Shell, BP, Total, Azur, Esso, Avia, Caltex etc
Temp more than 20°C SAE 20W/40
0° to 20°C and less than 0°C SAE 10W/30

As to additives, there are two sorts, and I kinda half agree with you.
All mineral oils have additives already in them, and these are important. ZDDP is vital to our VWs with flat tappet cam followers. Anti-corrosion additives are usually in there. These are good if you don't fly every single week. Detergents are important to keep your engine internals clean (provided that engine has always run with detergent oils, which they mostly are nowadays). Many heavier grade mineral oils also have thickeners. All these additives are already in off-the-shelf oils in one quantity or another.

Adding additives ourselves is a different issue. I would not bother with Slick 50, STP or any 'pour it in yourself' other additive except molybdenum disulphide, simply because none of the manufacturers tells you what's in them, they make vague, insubstantiatable claims, and these additives dilute your base oil.
For that reason I would never put additives into the engines of either of my straight-and-level aeroplanes or any of my cars.

BUT molybdenum disulphide (Liqui-Moly, Molyslip etc) coats all the bearing surfaces of your engine, continuing to provide lubrication for extended periods when you have no oil pressure, so I do add it to my aerobatic Fournier VW engines. The producers make other claims (lower friction, longer engine life, better fuel economy) but none of those things interests me.

Proof? HDO's 1968 Rectimo is 49 years old, and has now amassed 1,386 hours, the last twelve years and 386 hours of full-on, +6/-3g aerobatics. It has always run on 15/50 or 20/50 multigrades, and for the past eleven years and 350 hours with molybdenum disulphide. Its crankcase has never been split. It is still pulling strongly and has fair oil pressure (good for its age, but no longer perfect).

So, 'yes' and 'no'.

Yours, Bob

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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Posted Tuesday, May 17, 2016 @ 02:48 PM    YIM

Hi Bob,
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yes it was taken lightly. I have used would you believe Duckhams 20-50 for many years when the HD 30 dried up in Germany. Today I wouldn't hesitate to fill er up with 20-50, but not a synthetic or additives. Maybe the latest oils for the heritage class motor vehicles would be OK but a tad on the expensive side.

Regards

Roger

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It takes 1.460 bolts to build an aircraft and 1 nut to spread it over the landscape

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Posted Friday, February 10, 2017 @ 10:04 AM  

Of course all of this information carries across to cars.
Three of ours are quite old (although not as ancient as my Fournier's 1968 Rectimo!) — a 1988 BMW 325i, a 1983 Mitsubishi Colt, and a 1995 V-12 Jaguar Sovreign. All of these have flat (non-roller) cam followers, so clearly all of them need ZDDP in their oils. It has been a struggle enough to compensate for the lack of TEL in modern auto fuels!
While trying to find local oils with the correct formulation, I have added molybdenum disulphide to their sumps, in the hopes that it will provide some additional cam-follower lubrication over and above that of the existing ordinary mineral oil.
I do enjoy keeping these older vehicles serviceable and running, and it is becoming increasingly rare to see similar examples on the road — indeed, I don't think I have seen another 'square' Colt like mine in the six years I have owned it.

I am becoming increasingly convinced that this is because other owners of similar cars do not use the correct fuels and oils.

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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Posted Friday, February 10, 2017 @ 10:45 AM  

We're very fortunate here in Australia, because our home-grown oil company Penrite not only understands our flat tappet problem, but produces a lubricant specifically designed for air-cooled VWs.

Not only that, but their customer service is excellent, in that they print a comprehensive catalogue with full details of the additives and their proportions in all their oils.

Also there is an in-store electronic gadget, kinda like an iPad on the wall, into which you can type your car model to find which of their lubricants suits it best. To my amazement it knew and accepted all three of our eighties cars plus my Rectimo (as a late sixties Vee Dub of course). Each selection came up with a 'best oil' — Classic Light for the Colt, Classic Heavy for the Jag & Beemer, Classic V-DUB for the Rectimo — but they all gave a 'next best'. In every case this was their HPR 30, a 20-60 multigrade (summer temperatures up to +42°C or 110°F remember) with 0.16% of ZDDP plus a special 'sticky' additive for vehicles that spend a lot of time laid up.

Needles to say, I bought five litres of HPR 30 to use in any or all of our engines.

So a) research pays off and

b) we can keep our engines going for ever.

Happy Fournicating, Bob

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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Posted Friday, March 17, 2017 @ 07:59 AM  

In the unlikely event that anybody from Britain is reading this, I've been using Comma Classic Motor Oil in my British RF4D for the past couple of years. The tech specs say it has 8% zinc and 7% phosphorous, so presumably (mad randon assumption) that means 15% of ZDDP, which is pretty much what Martin said we need.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/storage.commaoil.com/files/products_masters/11759.pdf?response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20filename%3D%2211759.pdf%22&AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJXQ2YUDI5JWFP3IQ&Expires=1489754882&Signature=NuYSq9CQtCp1f9veRwy26o4ZS74%3D

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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Posted Saturday, March 18, 2017 @ 04:34 PM  

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Grimstead
Full synthetic oils are completely inappropriate and will indeed 'kill' a VW.

Bob, I thought the VW car guys are okay with synthetic oil, while admitting it's perhaps overkill for an engine requiring frequent oil changes (no oil filter).
What is there about synthetic oil that would damage our engines?

--------------------
Don
RF4D #4054 N1700F Rectimo 1400cc

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Posted Sunday, March 19, 2017 @ 04:13 AM  

Hi Don,

If you can find a modern synthetic oil with the correct amount of ZDDP in it, by all means try it. After all, in comparison to a Lycoming, a new engine doesn't cost much.

Yours, Bob

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

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