Posted Saturday, March 7, 2009 @ 04:46 PM  

Any interest in developing new RF-4D's??

Posted Sunday, March 8, 2009 @ 12:04 PM  

I do agree that a much better performing RF could have a lot more interest. The 35/1 L/D Carat is getting a lot of attention. Pretty expensive for what you get, maybe a homebuilt 30/1 (Milan?) could be developed. I've looked at the Milan a bit, only 12 built, not many for sale. The one for sale right now a $30K and in Europe, so at least $40K here in the US. So, could a new one be built for less? My estimates say yes, but just barely and of course there is the time to design and build....

I always worry about designing and developing a motorglider. I think you could pour a ton of time and work into something that is not very good in the end. At least starting with an RF-4D one cold have some of these worries reduced.

OK, I'll go flying now and stop day dreaming....

Posted Sunday, March 8, 2009 @ 07:52 PM  

-Wood is so much nicer to work with- I became allergic to epoxy already when I built my first surfboard 25 years ago.

-As has been covered in other threads it is doable to remove the wing on the RF 4. Having an extra wing should therefore be feasible and extending the (already vast) options without doing away with the original one seems interesting, if it´s possible to do within a reasonable budget.

-As we´ve already agreed our high priest René should give his consent and also comment on whether this whole thought is considered to be blasphemy!

Take 5(b) just 4 fun/ Jörgen

Posted Monday, March 9, 2009 @ 03:55 PM  

Yes, count me in on working on a few RF4D kits.

I'm also crewless in SoCal....Schreder HP-11

I do have a Grob 109 motorglider but you can't do aerobatics, although its a good tourer.

The RF4D is not a great soaring machine but with an engine and aerobatics on tap there is other fun to be had, so I think the soaring is best left to the pure soaring machines with retractible motor pods.

My interest is gracefull long line aerobatics and just plain buzzing around and having fun, and a poor mans "Spitfire" in the form of an RF4D sure has the right stuff to fill that bill.

The performance, cost and maintennance are all good if not great, plus I don't have to go get any more ratings and can basically fly till I'm old and more grey.

A fellow in France is building from a set of plans so I think we would want to communicate our desires to Rene and see if he supports the home building effort and can get us a copy of the plans.

I think the composites can fit in where they make sense but primarily wood would seem to be the quickest way to go.

As you said once we start cutting wood having CNC patterns would allow us to make a few kits worth so there are spares and patterns etc for everyone.

The Guy from France "Phillippe" already has some CNC files as I understand it, or is currently creating them.

Posted Monday, March 23, 2009 @ 09:04 AM  

As an aerobatic newbie and enthusiast, I have huge respect for your airplanes, and it would be great to see you become involved in building Fourniers. Welcome to our world.

I too think that it is best to stick with wood. The RF4's structure is good for +6/-3g limit, and we know the test example didn't break until 13.8g. That's quite enough for me.
I've flown my 40 year-old Fourniers regularly to +6/-3g and ocacasionally (inadvertently) to nearly +7/-3.5g. Wood is good!

René Fournier's address is:
La Halbuterie
37270
Athée sur Cher
France

Although no longer young, he is still fit and vigorous and seems pleased to help all Fournier enthusiuasts. He's rightly very proud of his family of airplanes and their pilots. His son can translate from English into French for him.

Both Matthew Hill and Dave Bland (lifetime British Fournier enthisiasts) have RF4 fuselages and tailfeathers but no wings. A common accident is to go through a hedge and smash the wing, leaving the fuselage, engine, tail and all the rest OK.
Matthew even has almost all the metal wing components, although some might only be good enough to use for patterns/templates. I think you could sell a couple (maybe more) of wings or wing kits (minus fabric) pretty well straight off, but of course the spar is the difficult part to make. But the last second-hand wing (complete, un-covered) I heard of went for around $10,000US, so since Fourniers tend to be owned and operated by frugal or impecunious folks, there may not be any profit in that. At a guess, I'd say you might sell complete new wing kits (all the wood plus all the metal components) for $20k. That might just not be profitable.

If proceeding with a complete 'new' RF4, I would recommend using the Jabiru 2200 engine. It is lighter than a 1200/1400cc VW, but a very similar size and generates 80 horsepower at the same rpm (so it can use a similarly short and 'un-draggy'propeller) and incorporates an alternator and electric starter within that weight. The only problem is that these ancillaries are wider, and protrude further out of the back of the engine than the Rectimo's magneto, so a larger hole would have to be cut in the firewall to retain the center of gravity. That in turn would mean the firewall would have to be made stronger.
Last I heard, these motors sell new for under $10k US, but Jabiru factory reconditioned ones can be bought for less. A new 1400VW motor, made up from new/old stock parts currently costs around $6k here in Britain. Using the 1400cc VW I cannot quite maintain height during a 4-6 minute aerobatic sequence. Using the Jabiru I most definitely could do so, and probably include some more difficult manoeuvres. Unfortunately neither the Jabiru nor the VW have inverted fuel systems, but the RF4 is so clean that with a little more power it could regain while erect any energy lost while inverted.

If you would like to fly either of mine, you have an open invitation to do so.
One is usually near London Gatwick airport in England, and the other is near Perth airport in Western Australia.

If you do go into Fournier production, even in a limited way, if it is of any help, as an aviation journalist I reckon I can get you coverage in Kitplanes (USA), Pilot (Britain), aerokurier (Germany), Pilotes (France), Flygrevyn (Sweden) and Volare (Italy) and probably in Australian Aviation and World AirNews (South Africa) too. Maybe more.

I look forward to hearing of your progress, and hope I can help.