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Collin
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Posted Friday, January 2, 2015 @ 12:02 PM  

Hello,

I started the new year with my first gear up landing. It was caused by new tire that was a little to large and could not get the gear down.

Collin

Glen Rae
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Posted Friday, January 2, 2015 @ 01:55 PM  

Happy New year to you Collin, sorry it started like that. Hope the Fournier escaped any serious injury !

Regards
Glen

Markku
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Posted Friday, January 2, 2015 @ 01:58 PM  

Happy New Year Collin, I have made it twice with 4, one by accident, and the second time brake cable was restricting the movement, only one prop destroyed
Markku

P.S. Did you manage to save the propeller

[Edit by Markku on Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 02:55 AM]

Donald
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Posted Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 05:37 AM  

A touch of irony in the topic title, I think.

That's a bummer Collin but I hope the flight was in all other ways wonderful and memorable.
Did that once. Pilot error beyond doubt and I hope I never do it again, though in all other aspects it was a lovely landing with surprisingly little damage.

May the rest of 2015, and beyond, be free from such excitements. Happy new year to you all.

Collin
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Posted Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 11:04 AM  

Hi,

I knew for a hour and half I was going to land gear up. I was flying along the Oregon coast and had been up for two hours. I was planning to make a landing and make pit stop in Astoria. Astoria is in the most Northwest corner of Oregon also the opening of the Columbia river. I was crosswind and could not get the gear down so I would rather land gear up at my home base in McMinnville. It was about a hour flight back. I had flown most of the flight a 20" of manifold pressure (2500-2600 rpm) so my fuel burn was low about 2.2 gph (8.3 litres per hour). Having enough fuel to safely fly home I did. When I arrived at MMV airport I tried high G turns to try to get the gear down after trying for a half hour and no luck. I call some friends on the phone and radio to have a tractor ready so we can get the RF5B off the runway as fast as possible. I did not want to have declared a emergency and get the FAA involved. They have no sense of humor. I turned off the fuel let and let carb run out of fuel feathered the prop and landed. I only damage was some cracks in the cowling, Left fairing were the transponder antenna was, LED beacon is now a little shorter and a brown spot in my underwear.

Link to my SPOT
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=00I6thk4eSIKo7KpdqWLv0IWUoahEGvtZ

Take care

Collin

Jorgen
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Posted Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 11:31 AM  

Happy New Year Fournieteers,
and thanks for sharing your unfortunate event, Collin. I'm glad to hear you had only minor damage and I'm sure you'll be back in the air soon. Don't forget to check your outriggers for cracks and maybe change the rods. If it's any consolation you're not the first to experience this, Patrick (Faucheron) posted this on the UK forum almost a decade ago:

"-Our friend Walter Simonson in Brussel managed 2 of them in the short time, indeed without any damage .
He did not forget to take the MLG down, No, but the main wheel remained blocked in the cover ! It took some time to clarify this mystery: Reason for the problem: a new mounted tire 600x6 was bigger in diameter and got stuck in the cover !!!"

The retractable gear is an engineering marvel but not without concerns. My friend Peter who flew RF 4's in Oerlinghausen in the 70-ies suspects he is "responsible" for the extra welded triangle to reinforce the joint between the gear lever and the axle- the first one he flew didn't have that weld and he pulled the gear handle off trying to extend the gear!!

Seems like main tire size is critical for Fourniers so it's maybe a good idea to jack up your Fournier after a tire change to check gear travel before flight?

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

[Edit by Jorgen on Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 11:32 AM]

Collin
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Posted Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 12:16 PM  

Hi,

I had a Goodyear Flight Special II 600x6 6 ply. Any recommendation for a smaller 600x6?

Or maybe shorten the gas struts?

Collin

D. Porter
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Posted Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 08:16 PM  

Hi Collin,

Wow that is a bummer, but sounds like you made the best of it and minimized the damage. I'm about to replace a tire on 1700F and was going to post here inquiring about this very issue, wish I had done so sooner.

My tire is a Goodyear Flight Custom 15x6.00-5 / G380-150-5 6PR, the 2nd one down in the table http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/lg/tirestubes_1goodyear/gy_tires.php
It just barely fits within the gear frame but I've never had an issue with it. The Goodyear site has complete dimensions of all their tires http://www.goodyearaviation.com/resources/pdf/databook_12_2014.pdf Mine is PN 385M61-1.
If the RF4 and RF5 take different size tires then ignore the above.

I'm curious about a few things?

Did you land on pavement or grass? Given the choice, is one better than the other to minimize damage gear up?

What was the original tire make and model that you replaced?

Did you cycle the gear with the new tire before you flew it?

Don

[Edit by D. Porter on Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 08:59 PM]

[Edit by D. Porter on Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 09:03 PM]

--------------------
Don
RF4D #4054 N1700F Rectimo 1400cc

Collin
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Posted Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 10:21 PM  

Hi,

I landed on pavement. The grass runway is very soggy this time of year and not that smooth. I also did not want to deal with the mud.

I replaced the tire with the same make and model. I think it had always been tight.

I will study the info you linked.

Thanks

Collin

Collin
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Posted Saturday, January 3, 2015 @ 10:33 PM  

Looking at the Goodyear charts my tire is 17.5" diameter. I am going to check other brands for maybe at 16" tire or go with the Goodyear 15" 600x6

Collin

Collin
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Posted Monday, January 5, 2015 @ 01:17 PM  

A few pictures.


sericson
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Posted Monday, January 5, 2015 @ 07:46 PM  

That sucks Collin, Happy New Year! My 5 has a Michelin 6:00-6, checked with the maintenance manual and it agrees. How hard was it to pull the gear down when you had the aircraft lifted? Where was the tire rub/contact point? Was thinking I would inspect mine to see if there was any history of contact.

--------------------
Steve Ericson
N2186 RF4D
N55SE RF-4D former F-BPLI Project
N99809 RF-5B

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Tuesday, January 6, 2015 @ 10:28 AM  

Happy New Year Collin,
Happy New Year everybody,

I'm really sorry to hear about your accident Collin, but that has been a known problem with RF3 and RF4 tires for some years. The current Michelin Tyre with the same numerical size is actually a different shape so you have to be very careful. I think a 500 x 5 tire gives a bit more clearance on an RF3 and RF4 than the original Michelin and European number tire.

I hope your aeroplane is soon repaired and I wish all fellow Fournier flyers a very happy year of flying in 2015.

Yours, Bob

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Donald
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Posted Tuesday, January 6, 2015 @ 03:46 PM  

First off Collin, You did well on your landing to get away with such little damage. Well done and aren't these wooden skegs just wonderful things.

Slightly off topic and in reply to Bob speaking about RF3/RF4 tires I replaced the one on my RF3 a few years ago and found that the Michelin 380x150 fits just fine. It too appears squarer in profile and unlikely to fit, but it does and has never given trouble. If the next time I'm out it jams in the snail I'm going to come on here and blame you lot!

Martin Hill
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Posted Tuesday, January 6, 2015 @ 06:14 PM  

Collin
Sorry to hear of your accident, but pleased your aeroplane has only suffered relatively minor bruises and grazes.

This is not an uncommon problem and I think it was on the German forum there was a piece about it after a similar incident. The strong advice was to check the undercarriage operation on the jacks after changing a tyre or the gas struts. I guess you now know that. The problem is put down to the fact that tyre diameters vary between manufacturers and maybe like people have got larger over the decades.

The root cause is actually seen in the original RF5 drawing which specifies a 420x150 tyre. This is 16.5" diameter on a 6.5" wheel. Now Tost never made a 6.5" wheel and the 6" is standard on the RF5. Presumably back in history Sportavia were faced with a 6" and threw on a 6.00-6 of whatever was the local flavour and it was OK, even though they are nominally 17.5". Or maybe the manual should actually read 15x6.00-6. Who knows?

If one looks inside the undercarriage bay there is a former or gussets at the front. Actually it is the floor. What happens, if the tyre is too big (and spinning helps), is it walks over this frame and jams above it and the top of the wheel well. Of course the gas strut acts like a ratchet and it takes a lot more force to get the wheel down over the frame than retract it. See witness marks in picture.

A possibility is to open up the frame slightly to get more clearance.

My old tyre was an Air Trac and it was fine. I changed it to a Condor together with the gas struts. The Condor 6.00-6 6 ply is 433mm diameter compared to 444mm of the Michelin. It is fine provided the pressure is not too high. At 40 psi it stays up (but can be moved without excessive force) at 30 psi it drops cleanly when you pull the release lever.

https://picasaweb.google.com/102632250290288840669/RF5Undercarriage?authkey=Gv1sRgCJDe9_Lom4GE0QE#6101339646086898498
https://picasaweb.google.com/102632250290288840669/RF5Undercarriage?authkey=Gv1sRgCJDe9_Lom4GE0QE#6101339670406840786

[Edit by Martin Hill on Tuesday, January 6, 2015 @ 06:21 PM]

--------------------
RF5 #5107 G-BEVO

Collin
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Posted Thursday, January 22, 2015 @ 01:29 PM  

Hello,

I have the new tire installed. The Aero trainer has a 16.5" (41.9cm) outside diameter. The Goodyear Flight Special II was 17.5" (44.45cm). Now the trie turns with the gear up!

Collin

Collin
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Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2015 @ 05:04 PM  

Hi,

I now have the transponder antenna inside the fairing. So next time the antenna will be safe.

SteveBeaver
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Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2015 @ 06:24 PM    YIM

Great idea Collin!
Martin Hill
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Posted Friday, January 30, 2015 @ 10:01 AM  

Collin I think you are being a little pessimistic to think there will be a next time!

I am not so sure about the location though, not that I am an expert. What I do know is that transponder signals are both weak and being the GHz range do not penetrate structures well. You may well find reduced signal range and even blanking to the righthand side. I only say this because I have had to test out a new radio and transponder installation fit recently. My transponder aerial in on the forward access panel between the skids.

With the aid of my friendly local RAF station we checked the transponder at a range of 30nm and 1000ft with me just orbiting around. We found loss of signal when I was abeam the station and banked towards it. basically the signal was blanked by the fuselage. It wasn't a surprise as I had previously discovered that at low altitudes the skids were blanking signals to the sides. I fixed this by applying some metal tape onto the inside of the skids to act as reflectors.

On the otherhand maybe you don't want to be tracked flying at low level!!

--------------------
RF5 #5107 G-BEVO

Collin
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Posted Monday, August 15, 2016 @ 09:12 PM  

Hello,

I almost had another gear up landing. I was flying a RF5B N99814 testing some carburetor work.

I was turning downwind I could not get the gear down. This RF5 has had a 100 flights with the currant tire. What I had found is the tire was just a little to big and I had the brake 1-2 click on so the tire could not roll pass the forward rib just below the turtle deck.

So now I will check the gear to see if the tire will turn with gear fully retracted and also cycle the gear with the brake on to make sure the tire is not to big.

Hopefully I will deliver this RF5B to it's new owner next week.

Collin

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