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Painting the RF4D - Paint Schemes Pictures Log printer friendly version
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jb92563
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Posted Thursday, September 23, 2010 @ 11:46 AM  

I am trying to come up with a repaint scheme for the fuselage to help inspire me to get down to work in a month or so when it cools enough to dampen the flying urges a bit.

I was trying to figure out how I would be able to visualize the paint in 3D and after doing a bit of searching and looking around I figured it would be easiest to just apply paint to an existing 3D model of the RF4D in a Flight Sim.

I found that Microsoft Flightsim FSX had an existing free RF4D, built by a 3rd party Mr K. Ito, so I downloaded it.

I also found that X-Plane had an RF4D model but the download link did not work, so I will go with the FSX software and model.

I went to Half.com and bought a "MS Flight Sim X" software for $15 and await its arrival in a week.

Then I will try out various Paint schemes on the model and be able to look it over 3D, and even fly the virtual RF4D while the real one is getting recovered, although I should be spending that time recovering not flying it on the flight sim.

Interestingly I found a number of our RF4D's copied plus a few of peoples own paint creations.

If anyone is interested I will document how to do this and certainly display the various Paint schemes I come across along with my own.

I found the model of Bob G's and paints for these others.







[Edit by jb92563 on Wednesday, November 3, 2010 @ 04:20 PM]

[Edit by jb92563 on Thursday, December 16, 2010 @ 04:51 PM]

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

Bob Brock
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Posted Thursday, September 23, 2010 @ 12:13 PM  

Wow... great timing!! I still have much more to do before painting but it is never too early to dream. The mostly original paint scheme seems to work best. N7725 was blue and white, but I believe the red and white looks great and may even be better for being seen. Anyone know the exact red and white colors? Thanks.... Bob Brock
jb92563
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Posted Thursday, September 23, 2010 @ 03:33 PM  

Here are some more.

















[Edit by jb92563 on Thursday, November 4, 2010 @ 04:41 PM]

[Edit by jb92563 on Thursday, November 4, 2010 @ 04:43 PM]

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

jb92563
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Posted Thursday, September 23, 2010 @ 03:43 PM  

One consideration I thought of is that if you like sealing the wing root and tail fairings with white glider tape as I do
its best that those tape areas be white so you don't spoil your paint job with some mismatching tape seal.

Also the metal heat shield on the fuselage sides next to the exhaust looks best when dull and whitish or shiny, in which case I might want to polish the exhaust pipes where they show.

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

SteveBeaver
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Posted Thursday, September 23, 2010 @ 03:46 PM    YIM

I very much like the original color scheme, but the registration markings that allow one to be identified from 5 miles away - not so much. I was thinking of this:

N7724's old, automotive paint is flaking off with every flight. Another couple of hours and I won't need to do any stripping at all. It will be naked

Collin
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Posted Thursday, September 23, 2010 @ 04:04 PM  

Hi,

I always liked this paint job.

Jorgen
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Posted Thursday, September 23, 2010 @ 06:12 PM  

Ray,
it never stop amazing me how much is out there on the internet, look, you even found "G-AVNX" which nowadays is "SE-XST". They even put the aileron trimtab back were it belong- on the left aileron. However, I can't see the bend, it should be downward as we thoroughly discussed.
Quote:
I very much like the original color scheme, but the registration markings that allow one to be identified from 5 miles away - not so much.

Copy that, Steve. Unfortunately we have rules in Sweden regarding letter size on the fuse and "downunder", where they are supposed to be a foot high. But isn't it funny how much more mud gets stuck on the underside of that left wing? I just can't clean it all off

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

[Edit by Jorgen on Friday, September 24, 2010 @ 05:39 AM]

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Thursday, September 23, 2010 @ 06:29 PM  

Wow!

How wrong are so many of those schemes????!!!!

Where do I start?

Firstly, the big registration letters are a modern abomination of the British unCivil Aviation Authority.
They are an insult to a beautiful aiplane, but we must by law wear the awful things.

Look at earlier British schemes and you will see registrations that are far better proportioned.

As I said before, DO NOT LOOK AT G-AWGN's SCHEME.
It is very incorrect.

Look at G-AWEK's, which is correct except for:
a) the horrible big registration letters.
b) The sunburst scheme on the upper flying surfaces.
For those of you who are not familiar with aerobatic competitons and displays, these and similar markings are applied to the upper surfaces (only) of an aerobatic aeroplane so that judges and audiences can see which way up it is.

Incidentally, if you look carefully, you can see that my G-AWGN now flies with G-BIIF's rudder, because the fabric on WGN's rudder was original and ripped off. Changing rudders was quicker than re-covering it, and it helps differentiate our airplanes in photos.

The forward fuselage curves are wrong on almost every airplane except G-BHJN and the drawing of F-BMKE.
That drawing is pretty accurate as a basis, but use WEK as a guide, because we traced the original factory scheme off that airplane.
That drawing does not have the fine white leading-edge fin lines, nor the white lines on the tailplane, and misses some other details.

Compare the nasty semi-circle on WGN, with this delightful, sensuous original freehand curve on WEK.

Note also the fine white line up the fins (vertical stabilizers). These and the placement and size of the tick are correct on both airplanes.
Note also the gradual taper of the two fuselage cheat lines from below the cockpit all the way back to the tailplane bracket.

All the wing and tailplane (horizontal stabilizer) markings are correct on WEK, except for the addition of the sunburst.

As I said earlier, to get the true original scheme, you have to go back to original (old) photographs.

They're all on the web site.

And for gap-taping, use red tape where you have a red scheme, as I do.
3M sell it in half-, one- and two-inch rolls.

Yours, Bob

Jorgen
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Posted Friday, September 24, 2010 @ 05:32 AM  

Wow again, Bob,
great pictures that makes your case. I hadn´t realized how much the shape of that curve makes for the overall appearance of the 4, but the pic with WEK and WGN makes it obvious. I wonder if the circular curve reduces the top speed as much as the visual impression would suggest? What an artist René is and how fortunate we are that he chose to be an airplane designer.

I like some of the alternative paint schemes like Sam's "Zipper", but I'm very happy Mike Woolard made such a good paint job on then "G-AVNX", now "SE-XST". Excuse the crappy cellphone pic, but the angle is reasonably similar to the pic of "G-AWEK". I also want to point out that the "Flight sim" version of "G-AVNX" is inaccurately painted regarding the (incorrect) circular curve which "SE-XST" as you can see does not have. It would have been nice to have the position lights though, the cables are there (for smokes?) but that´s another one of the "future projects..."

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

edit: P.S. Checked XST for details today- the white strip on the fin is not there, its cut short on the cover in front of the fin. Another "future project", it seems...D.S.


[Edit by Jorgen on Friday, September 24, 2010 @ 04:39 PM]

jb92563
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Posted Friday, September 24, 2010 @ 10:30 AM  

Bob, how long does the 3M tape last?

I imagine its the same as the stretchy glider tape?

I get about a year out of my current Bowlus White tape, leaves no residue and does not pull the paint off.

Does the 3M tape come off cleanly or does it take the paint with it?

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

Collin
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Posted Friday, September 24, 2010 @ 02:59 PM  

Hi,

Here are some notes on the RF4D rudder stripes.

http://www.cfiamerica.com/Fournier_RF4D_Rudder.html

dannparks
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Posted Monday, September 27, 2010 @ 11:57 AM  

The original SFS31 Milan (at least this one on the CFI website) seemed to have had a slightly different version of the side stripes and no stripes on the wing and tail leading edges. I like the way the side line follows the exhaust line more directly than the RF4D scheme. Something you might consider.

I have been heatedly debating the paint issue with myself ever since I started the N2188 project. At the beginning, I had planned to come up with a new scheme that paid tribute to the original, but with a few less stripes (something like the SFS31 Milan). However, as the project has progressed and I have learned more about the plane and the community of enthusiasts who cherish them, I will have to admit that I am leaning more toward maintaining the historical integrity of the aircraft and duplicating the original scheme. I made tracings of the original curves before I removed the old paint, so I can duplicate the correct curves.

Rene did a nice job giving the RF4 a unique, distinctive, and recognizable look. Since they are so rare, it might be nice when we get them together that they all look the same (or somewhat the same anyway).

Still undecided, but I'm going to have to make up my mind soon. It's time to paint it!

--------------------
Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1

Donald
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Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 @ 07:57 AM  

Hah! The flight sim picture of G-ATBP above is completely wrong because G-ATBP is an RF3 not a 4. I know because she's mine.
Collin
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Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 @ 03:37 PM  

Hi,

Looks like there were a few that had all white wings.


I talked John on the phone today (10/05/2010). N7725 left the factory with white wings.


taken by Merle Dobry




Jorgen
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Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 @ 05:55 PM  

Quote:
The original SFS31 Milan (at least this one on the CFI website) seemed to have had a slightly different version of the side stripes and no stripes on the wing and tail leading edges.

Dann,
I can't find the thread right now (maybe it got lost in a server breakdown) but there is one SFS-31 under restoration in the US. I remember reading a comment from the owner that the SF 27 wing is much thinner than the RF 4 wing, supposedly a "laminar flow" type of profile that can't be painted with stripes on the leading edge because the lines would work as "trip-wires", disrupting the supposedly laminar airflow. That's why SFS-31 Milans have single colour wings. Maybe the single colour RF 4's were forced deliveries, were the "trim" (=leading edge stripes) were omitted for time purposes? Is Mira on line to share some light on that, was it due to the wing tank mod on N 1770?

Collin,
I like those pictures and especially the telltale grin on your face! I thought John rode motorbikes, but that shirt suggests he was into bicycles as well?

So my understanding is we have consensus that René knew his stuff with paintwork as well, reg letters, at least on the fuse sides shouldn't be to big (maybe SE-XST size?), red has slightly more votes than blue, slight modification of the original scheme is not a valid reason to be expelled from the Fraternity of Fourniers and Collin was too severly Fourn-infected at too early an age to ever nourish hope of beeing cured.

Alternative interpretations, anyone?

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, September 29, 2010 @ 01:43 PM  

That lack of leading-edge stripes is very interesting.

If it was not part of Rene's beautiful original scheme, I would never have leading-edge stripes on my wings.

Boeing and McDonnell Douglas made an in-depth investigation of wing leading-edge contamination after a succession of nasty, cold-weather Boeing 737 stalls -- dubbed 'pitch-up and roll-off events', presumably because Boeing and the airlines involved didn't want to admit to 'stalls with wing-drops'.

Swept wings will usually pitch up when they stall due to ice acretion like this, because the ice builds up on the thinner outer wing panels quicker than it builds up on the fatter inboard sections. Think about it.

The conclusion of months and months of investigation and test flying, with paint rollers and paints and goops of varying densities and surface textures was that 'contaminants (like paint stripes) with a thickness in excess of 1/20,000th of the chord on the first third of the wing's leading-edge will affect the stall speed and stalling behaviour of any airplane'.

With wings like ours, with say three foot (36 ins) chords, this means any bugs, paint, dirt, dust or anything thicker than 18 thousands of an inch (or is that just 1.8 thou?) will raise the stalling speed.

Like I say, I do not like leading-edge paint stripes, but I'm stuck with them.

Yours, Bob

Jorgen
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Posted Wednesday, September 29, 2010 @ 04:18 PM  

Bob,
interesting story, laminar flow is an interesting concept and the leading edge is a delicate structure, but of course different wings have different succeptability to stall. Fourniers are gliders and my impression is that most Fournieteers have glider experience either before they got their Fournier or after, because Fournierflying implies a similar mindset. Keeping the leading edge clean is part of the almost mystical religious routines that surrounds gliding and I think it's fair to assume that most Fournieteers are adamant about cleaning their leading edges after each flight, which is definetly more than you can say for the average GA pilot.

One thing that I've often pondered over is that the RF 4 propellor (or should I say Bugrepellor) is so incredibly efficient at finding all bugs in the area, chop them up into a messy protein goo that are then evenly distributed over the inside third of the right wing leading edge. In my case it is probably a sign that the farmland surrounding my strip is rich enough to support umptyughh million bugs per square feet and maybe because the high taxi rpm of the Hoffman toothpick prop I use chops more bugs than lets say a Cub prop at taxi speed. When the rapeseeds are in bloom all along the looong taxi to line up the right wing gets noticeably blacker than the left one, but I haven't noticed any noticeable change regarding stall characteristics.

I guess I'm trying to say I think bugs are more detrimental to the flow around a RF 4 wing than the painted stripes on the leading edge, but my impression is that the profile is not very sensitive to leading edge pollution (my flights in rain has been OK too) and a good waxing a couple of times a year might be a good fix that allows you to paint your wing anyway you want.

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

dannparks
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Posted Thursday, September 30, 2010 @ 02:38 AM  

There also seemed to be some variation of paint from the factory.

This shows at least one in a reversed color scheme (dark with light stripes)-- although it's hard to know what the colors were. Anybody have any color photos of this reversed scheme?

--------------------
Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Thursday, September 30, 2010 @ 06:22 AM  

Hi Dann,

That 'reversed' scheme belonged to a British-registered dark blue and lemon-yellow RF4D.

For a while at least it was owned by a woman, and it ended its days with a crash at Shoreham, near Brighton, on Britain's south coast.

All that is now left is the fin, which is hung high on the wall of the Shoreham Airport Museum.

There is no caption or card to tell folk what it is, but I recognised it a few years ago, and went to the trouble of looking at its blue plastic Dymo sticker.
I mentioned these on another post; they appear on the main components of all British registered Fourniers, and possibly others.
At that time I could remember the registration (from which you could get the construction number) but my memory no longer works so well.

Now, where was I?

Aso, I can see that the forward fuselage curve is subtly different on the nearest two airframes (or is that just lens distortion?)

Maybe it was a freehand curve after all.

Whatever it was, it was NOT a semi-circle, as now appears on WGN.

I will address this when I have the time.

Meanwhile, good luck with all your restoration and painting projects.

We are all wishing you a speedy conclusion, and greatly look forward to seeing more of these wonderfule little airplanes back in the element where they belong.

Yours, Bob

jb92563
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Posted Thursday, September 30, 2010 @ 03:39 PM  

I've received and installed the MS Flight Simulator X and loaded the RF4D model.

It was really quite cool and a bunch of RF4D's where available including my own N-1771.

I could not resist and had to fly them around a bit.

I also took Bob's G-AWGN for a spin. Don't worry Bob, I didn't prang it and I topped up the fuel

The flight model seems pretty close although I can not vouch for the aerobatics. However It did not go far vertical and
seems exactly what I have been reading it would do. Engine even cuts out when going inverted or negative.

I started fiddling with the paint scheme and and started laying out some ideas.

You simply take the existing templates and change your paint with a paint program as desired and then go fly so you can look at it from all angles.

In the middle of the template below you will see my first idea.

Since the wing is to remain the same I only need to paint the fuselage and rudder.

If anyone else wants to paint themself a scheme I can explain how to do it. Its rather easy actually.

When your done I can make a movie of it on the flight sim on my 63" rear projection TV and send it back to you.

[Edit by jb92563 on Friday, October 1, 2010 @ 10:41 AM]

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Friday, October 1, 2010 @ 06:39 AM  

i Guys,

If anybody out there in fournierland is likely to want to paint their fuselage in the original scheme, I have a tracing, and can go and find it, mneasure the salient points and give them to you all.

However:

a) I am pretty busy right now.
and
b) I shall be off to Australia in a month, leaving that tracing in England.

So, if you want those details, let me know soon, but be prepared to wait a while for the answers.

Yours, Bob

Mira Slovak
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Posted Tuesday, October 5, 2010 @ 06:14 PM  

Hello Jorgen.
Sorry I am late on your question about the "white only" paint on the RF-4 wing. I have just returned from Lake Chelan, WA. boating trip driving with Miss Wahoo.../but that is a other story./ I think you are right, that the wing only white paint is based on forced deliveries. At least 2 x N-1700 were finished under time pressure for what ever reason. John's RF-4, N-7725 "white wing" reason could be answered by Collin or his father or John himself. I am not sure, but I think that N-7725 was the white wing with red trim RF-4, I borrowed from Bert Buytendik 1969 or 1970 for the St. Louis Air Show which was in front of the Gateway Arch and over Mississippi river. I remember very well this occasion where I met at that time
"The greatest aerobatic pilot Bevo Howard in his Jungmeister". Also, I had to explain to our friendly FAA why did I flew with the RF-4 under two or three bridges spanning Mississippi river, /but that is other story./
Fligt Forsiktigt.
Mira.
Jorgen
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Posted Wednesday, October 6, 2010 @ 03:07 PM  

Absolut Mira, alltid försiktigt- lågt och sakta (low and slow)!?!
Thanks for those insights and you really need to post more on here: I smell a juicy story behind every sentence you write. Maybe Collin or Steve can provide an alter ego-identity for you so you can post your stories in full without risking legal complications?

Regarding the bridges over Mississipi you have my full understanding. The RF 4 never had any good performance on high altitudes.

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

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Posted Friday, October 8, 2010 @ 09:33 PM    YIM

It looks like I will have an easier time than any of you taking the fabric off my fuselage. - There is no fabric to remove! The previous restorer seems to have painted on bare wood. The paint has been flaking off a little lately, but then again it has looked great for about 40 years, and I have done about no maintenance on the airframe since I have owned it.

I plan to make up for that over the winter with some new fabric, and a new paint job. I'm picking colors and sketching designs now that the Jungmann is finished.

Steve

Lutz Pritschow
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Posted Sunday, October 17, 2010 @ 05:34 AM  

Thought that this might fit in here. The baby has a name now. Perhaps some inspiration for someone.......or suggestions for improvement.......



I also didn't like the big registration letters, but as with (almost) everyone else in western Europe, there is a law regarding the size of the letters (in our case 30cm high as a minimum). I have already taken some liberty by using italics, and am probably going to get some stick from my inspector. But I figure I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Greetings
Lutz

[Edit by Lutz Pritsehow on Sunday, October 17, 2010 @ 07:06 AM]

jb92563
Second Lieutenant

Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583

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Posted Tuesday, November 2, 2010 @ 10:29 AM  

I finally figured out how to get the RF4D repaint modified for for modeling on the MS Flight Sim X.

I was not saving the file in the proper 8 bit BMP format.

I played around with it last night with the new repaint and although the yellow/red bars and checkers
paint scheme looks interesting I can not say that I am really that enthusiastic about that design.

It does makes the RF4D look rather racey though, which I like.

I'll have to try something else or different colors . I also had to paint the wing and elevator control surfaces
to tie it in with the existing pieces.

I'll post some pictures tommorow of what it looks like in FSX.

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

jb92563
Second Lieutenant

Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583

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Posted Wednesday, November 3, 2010 @ 10:20 AM  

Here is the first paint scheme I tried out in MS Flight Sim X.

Starting on a different scheme as I am not sure I like this first one.




--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

Jorgen
Captain

Gender: Male
Location: Lund, Sweden
Registered: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 833

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Posted Wednesday, November 3, 2010 @ 04:16 PM  

Well Ray,
I have already stated my preference, but I do give you credit for trying out different paintschemes. The FlightSimX does seem to give you a much more realistic feel for how a paintscheme looks in real life, I have to say I'm a bit amazed. It's simply impossible to picture how a paint scheme might look from only the traditional 3-plane view.

Please continue to post your paint scheme versions, I think it will be hard to beat the original paint scheme when you consider all different angles- but please prove me wrong!

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

jb92563
Second Lieutenant

Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583

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Posted Friday, November 5, 2010 @ 10:45 AM  

I have 2 more designs on tap with more ideas in the works.
I scanned through about 4000 aircraft pictures on airliners for ideas.

As I am scanning though the airliner site pictures I am finding more Fourniers and posting pictures of the interesting ones to the 2nd email in this thread that shows the diversity of paint jobs out there.

The next 1 will be similar to the red yellow above, but without the yellow, just a red/white version of that scheme.

Also since Colin mentioned he liked the red/white/blue Reno Racer look I did one of those as well. I took a quick preliminary
look at it this morning in FSX and its looking pretty cool.

More pics from FSX to follow over the weekend.

[Edit by jb92563 on Friday, November 5, 2010 @ 10:49 AM]

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

jb92563
Second Lieutenant

Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583

Click here to see the profile for jb92563 Visit http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563 Send email to jb92563 Send private message to jb92563 Find more posts by jb92563 Edit or delete this message Reply w/Quote
Posted Tuesday, November 9, 2010 @ 01:43 AM  

Here are the next 2 designs

Interesting...




I was a little sloppy on this one....just trying to get ideas out quickly.....nothing really spectacular yet, although the red-white-blue is a bit more interesting, as suggested by Collin.



[Edit by jb92563 on Tuesday, November 9, 2010 @ 01:44 AM]

[Edit by jb92563 on Tuesday, November 9, 2010 @ 01:46 AM]

[Edit by jb92563 on Tuesday, November 9, 2010 @ 01:49 AM]

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org

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