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Vion Compass Type 112 printer friendly version
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Collin
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Posted Tuesday, November 21, 2017 @ 09:33 PM  

Hello,

I am rebuilding my Vion compass. I have two to make one. The one that had fluid the fluid was very thick and yellow. Would anyone know if compass fluid (oil) for the USA made Airpath would work? Can new parts be bought?


--------------------
Collin Gyenes

Jorgen
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Posted Wednesday, November 22, 2017 @ 11:33 AM  

Hi Collin,
I had the same problem I suspect you had (and maybe Ray?), the fluid leaked out, right? I've been trying to find out if they had alcohol or kerosene oil (which I believe is the most common media in compasses) but haven't found any manual for the 112 compass which was built in the fifties and sixties.

I suspect it's alcohol since that would leak out easier but don't know for sure. Once I find out what fluid to use I was hoping it was just a cleaning out job and then use a suitable sealant that copes with the fluid. I don't know about parts but Keystone instruments might be a source of information?

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Collin
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Posted Friday, November 24, 2017 @ 05:22 PM  

Hi,

The seal that I am using is made from Viton. So it it hold up to any fluid used. The part number for the seal is 027 905 261. It is a VW 16v distributor seal.

I will try Isopropyl Alcohol and see how it works.

http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_11_5_817_892&products_id=2250

--------------------
Collin Gyenes

Collin
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Posted Friday, November 24, 2017 @ 06:18 PM  

I plan on making a new panel. This panel is has a few unwanted holes.

--------------------
Collin Gyenes

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Friday, November 24, 2017 @ 10:35 PM  

Hiya Colin,

When I was re-building Wagon my professional metal working friend Pete Taylor made me three panels, with proper, stamped holes. I have used one in Wagon, and have another for HDO, but I have a spare which you can have if you want it.

The four big holes and four small holes have been punched out cleanly, but that is all.
Also the upper, outer edges are slightly trimmed so that the panel doesn't damage the fabric and woodwork when you take it out and put it back in.

Give me a couple of days and I'll post a photo.

If you want it, it is yours and I'll mail it to you.

Good luck with your continuing rebuild and we all look forward to seeing the aeroplane flying again next summer if not before.

Alll the best, Bob

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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Collin
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Posted Thursday, November 30, 2017 @ 03:15 PM  

Hi Bob,

Thanks very much for the offer on the panel. I will let you know if needed. Not sure what panel I am going to use.

--------------------
Collin Gyenes

Bob Grimstead
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Posted Sunday, December 10, 2017 @ 10:51 PM  

This is it, if you want it.

--------------------
Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV

Jorgen
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Posted Monday, August 3, 2020 @ 04:18 PM  

Hi Fournieteers,
just trying to wrestle the thread drift back to the Vion type 112 Compass....

Doing some tinkering with my compass (about time...) and just like Collin said I think the seal is the problem. I think it's a really cool little compass that I prefer to keep instead of buying a new one. Briefly how to dismantle: You need a very fine slotted screwdriver and first you take out the 4 (on mine only two were left) VERY small screws that hold the cover onto the compass face at the 11, 1, 5 and 7 o'clock of the cover (see second pic for positions on the cover).

Next you unscrew 8 screws around the face of the compass, NOT the ones at the 12 and 6 o'clock which are magnetic set screws. After that you can carefully pry the face of and the seal around the glass. On mine the seal was all dried up so I suspect that's where it starts leaking. On mine the glass was really opaque-looking but remembering that glider pilots use the mild polish in toothpaste to get the leading edge really smooth I tried that to good effect. Next step is to find a fresh seal and I might try to put it together in a bowl of kerosene to avoid airbubbles.

On this picture you can see the back of the compass with a screw for filling up if you need to do that. You have to be careful when loosening this screw and hold the nut underneath to avoid cracking the pressure membrane. If anyone knows a good source for the seal I would be grateful.

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Jorgen
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Posted Tuesday, August 4, 2020 @ 02:40 AM  

Hi again,
I've been trying to find out if it's petroleum-based fluid or alcohol but can't find it even though I found an old manual for the type 112. It appears that earlier Vion compasses had alcohol so I think I'll go for that.

And thanks Collin for a source for the seal, I've ordered one so will report how that holds up. I also mailed the Vion 112 manual to you so hopefully that can be posted on the "technical" page on the website?

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

[Edit by Jorgen on Tuesday, August 4, 2020 @ 02:41 AM]

[Edit by Jorgen on Tuesday, August 4, 2020 @ 03:15 AM]

Jorgen
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Posted Tuesday, August 4, 2020 @ 03:08 AM  

Hi again Fournieteers,
sorry for ranting away but found this text from Paul Crespel at "Trade Mark London Compass Shop" that might be interesting if you plan to overhaul your compass:

"COMPASS FLUID

Many types of fluid have been used over the years to fill liquid-damped compasses. The presence of fluid acts to damp the horizontal circular oscillation of a compass card and allows the card to settle on north much faster than air-damped compasses. Liquid-damped compasses traditionally have a floating compass dial that turns instead of a moving needle supported over a fixed card - but occasionally you will see exceptions.

Compasses manufactured between circa 1904 and the late 1960s will almost certainly still contain the remains of Radium-based luminous paint. This is a highly radioactive substance and potentially very dangerous. These compasses should not be opened by non-qualified personnel as the fluid, which will have been in contact with the Radium for many decades, will be as radioactive as the Radium itself. If the Radium paint, dust from the paint, or fluid that has been in contact with the Radium is ingested, inhaled or enters the body through a cut or scratch on the skin then it would be wise to see urgent medical assistance, taking the compass and parts with you, sealed in a suitable container. Unfortunately there won't be much that the medics can do.

So, assuming you wish to top-up or replace old compass fluid, what should you use? Firstly, if there are bubbles in the compass you must first fix the cause of the bubbles or lack of fluid, otherwise replaced fluid will simply escape the same way as the original fluid escaped. If there is suspected Radium in the compass then do not do this work yourself. Substances such as putty and silicone sealant are not recommended for sealing as they only make a terrible mess and simply do not work. You need to find original seals or make new seals to the exact size, shape and profile of the originals.

Compass fluids
The best fluid to use for any compass, old or new, is purified kerosene. Purified kerosene is transparent, has low-volatility, does not generally damage pained surfaces or mother-of-pearl dials (tests should be carried out first if unsure). It is gentle on rubber and silicone gaskets and seals, and ideal for most compasses. If your compass previously contained a different fluid then it is wise to flush out the old compass and all its internal parts several times with purified kerosene prior to the final filling. Purified kerosene works over a massive temperature range, from around minus 40 Celsius to around 65 Celsius. However it is NOT SUITABLE FOR ALL COMPASSES so please take care before using purified kerosene."

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Jorgen
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Posted Tuesday, August 4, 2020 @ 03:12 AM  

Continued text:

"Stanley G-150 compasses are traditionally filled with Isopropyl alcohol. This works fine, but I don't recommend it, and I always use purified kerosene when I service Stanley compasses. Isopropyl alcohol is very volatile and will quickly find any weakness in the seals and evaporate. It is also less gentle on rubber and silicone seals, and can eventually break down the glue used to hold the two Tritium lamps in place on the card and beneath the card. Isopropyl alcohol is recommended only for G-150 compasses, but if purified kerosene is available then it is a better choice. Also, kerosene has a higher density and thus provides improved damping in comparison to Isopropyl alcohol.

If your antique compass bowl is painted while inside then do not use Isopropyl alcohol as it will almost certain damage the paint. Also, if your antique compass has white paint inside the bowl, NEVER let the paint dry out, especially when working on it, as it will flake and fall off.

De-gassing compass fluid
Whatever compass fluid you use, unless it is de-gassed bubbles will soon appear in your newly re-filled compass. All fluids contain dissolved air, which eventually works its way back out of solution, forming bubbles. To de-gas your fluid, whether it's Isopropyl alcohol, purified kerosene, water, or any other fluid, you need to place it in a vacuum chamber for a period of time until it stops bubbling, and then it is de-gassed and ready to use.

There are many other fluids that could be used, such as tap water, if the compass is very old and not likely to be used in the cold. Water is a perfectly valid damping fluid, but freezes near zero Celsius, which is the only reason other fluids are used. In the past a certain amount of glycerine was added to the water to prevent freezing. The Sestrel Radiant compass by SIRS Limited, and the older models by Henry Hughes, used 90% water with 10% alcohol added to act as antifreeze. I have heard of people using thinners, turpentine, turpentine substitute and various other fluids, that that is not a satisfactory or recommended practice. One person I spoke to once said they used gin to "commercially" service liquid prismatic compasses, and I believe that person is still using it to this day; not very professional!

Many people ask me where they can obtain purified kerosene. The most available form of purified kerosene is transparent colourless lamp oil, usually available from any hardware store. Isopropyl alcohol can be obtained from most pharmacies, but make sure you get 99.9% purity.

Whether you choose to use kerosene or alcohol, make sure that the gaskets, o-rings and seals you use are compatible with the chosen fluid, or the fluid will quickly destroy the seals"

So, I think I will use lampoil which incidently is what my friend Mikael Carlson who tinkers a lot with old stuff including aircraft instruments recommends.

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Jorgen
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Posted Wednesday, August 5, 2020 @ 05:48 PM  

Hello again,
when you have a tendency to overthink/talk things (who- me?) it's good to have friends that can set you straight.

I visited with my friend Mikael who was busy making a finer pitch prop to his 1918 Pfalz DVIII but when I showed him the Vion 112 compass he just put down his tools and said "-OK, you need a seal and some Kerosene" and it took him about 3 minutes to fix it....

From memory the outer diameter of the seal was 42 mm (like the meaning of life as suggested by Douglas Adams in "The Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy), once that was cut we screwed the compass face back on (it squeezes the rubber seal against both the glass and the compass house with it's 8 screws) and filled kerosene via the screw on the back using a syringe.

This is the really neat little tool Mikael used to make the seal, just a point and the knife can be adjusted to cut both the outer and inner diameter to proper size. My compass is now holding the kerosene just fine and looks excellent. I hope everyone keeps their cool little Vion type 112 compasses instead of buying new ones.

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Jorgen
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Posted Friday, August 21, 2020 @ 06:34 PM  

....and this is the restored Vioncompass back on the panel. And yes I will re-paint the plastic screws with matt black...

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

[Edit by Jorgen on Friday, August 21, 2020 @ 06:35 PM]

Donald
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Posted Saturday, August 22, 2020 @ 02:04 AM  

That looks much fresher than it does in the Panel Pictures page of this web site, but you intrigue me again. What is the purpose of the white pointer sticking down from the inverted slip ball?
Jorgen
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2020 @ 10:19 AM  

Good question Donald,
I've always thought it's to take care of the (possibly potentially expanding) airbubble?

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

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