Posted by Bob Brock on Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 07:20 PM:
Greetings:
Attached is a link showing an order form for the outriggers. I have made three sets of outriggers, but frankly don't think they are as nice as those offered in Germany. Collin loaned me one for a sample and they are really nice. The problem is that I damaged my first set because they were too long and the wheel went sideways... I rebuilt the brackets and have them mounted, but need some better ideas for measurement, (esp. the length) so I hope you can take a look at the order form and let me know what measurements I should include in my order. The wing brackets are the stainless steel brackets Eugenio gave me. They are mounted about 2 inches outboard from where the original brackets were mounted (the original were in the rib. I will be ordering ASAP... so if any of you want to place orders, it might be helpful to have them go to the factory at the same time, and or have them shipped together to the US. I am going out to the hanger and will measure the brackets.. but the length correct has been a problem.
Here is the link to the order form sent to me by the factory. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4Vnqqsr4vAdGab1glxIK_WQ2eKilF31FV5382-y05ik?feat=email
Regards, Bob Brock
Posted by Bob Brock on Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 09:24 PM:
Just visited N7725 and took some measurements off the out rigger brackets and my current set of out riggers..... I know they are too long. The inside diameter of the bracket is 24mm, the outside, 26mm. The inside depth is 132mm and the overall length of the tube is 135mm. My current outriggers are.... from the wing bottom surface to the bottom of the wheel... 450mm, and the bracket is 32mm extended from the wing surface. The general data from the order form would have the 445mm (430mm below the bracket with the bracket 15mm extended below the bottom wing surface). Again I know my length was too long... I was trying for a height that would allow me to clear taxi lights and keep the left wing about level when entering the cockpit. However, I believe a bit shorter would be better... even so the wing is perhaps in a 2 to 5 degree bank to help with crosswinds, but that is just a guess. Is there any advantage to having outriggers in different lengths, e.g., left on a bit longer? If you have tried different lengths and found the one that works best, please let me know. Cheers and Happy New Year... Bob Brock
Posted by dannparks on Saturday, December 29, 2012 @ 07:52 PM:
Interesting to see some data on the outrigger length. I based my new outriggers length on the old ones that came with the plane. They are 508mm (20") from bottom of wing to bottom of wheel measured along the outrigger -- way too long it would seem, and they feel too long in my taxi tests.
However, the real measurement isn't the outrigger length, it's the ground clearance of the wheels (preferably with your weight in the plane). This takes into account the differences in suspension compression, tire height, inflation, etc. My high wheel is 168mm (6 5/8") off the ground with the plane unoccupied. If my outriggers were the specified length, the high wheel clearance would be around 295mm (11 5/8") which seems like too much.
Have any others measured their wheel clearance? I did not find this reference distance in a forum search.
[Edit by dannparks on Saturday, December 29, 2012 @ 07:53 PM]
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Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
Posted by Jorgen on Sunday, December 30, 2012 @ 09:26 PM:
Hello Guys,
relevant discussion. Check out this thread for som comments:
http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=5mvl1wypWDgEYvy7Hq92BtJMg9&forum=11&thread=527
I'm actually in Texas right now but I can measure mine when I get back- they're short compared to how I had them before. I agree the "high wing clearance" is a better measure than outrigger length, but remember with level wings you only have half that clearance. I also think this is a matter of personal preference, X-wind habits, what type of strip you fly out of etc.
Oh amd Happy New Year!!
May the 4's be with you/ Jorgen
Posted by Bob Brock on Monday, December 31, 2012 @ 03:15 PM:
Greetings again:
Thanks for the discussion, I had not thought about doing the actual measurements based on wing tip height and done when I am in the aircraft, wt., etc. Here is a link to my order form if you want to see what I am giving the factory. I may have to trim them for length but I think they put me in the ball park.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/77z9cUoQKxlxLd-rQoeOpzxr0Mbg3OqFw4qg4aNlrAE?feat=email
A couple years ago I flew Collin's RF-4d to an airshow (he flew his RF-5).. and one outrigger was very weak and did break... he recommended NOT to do what most of us would do naturally, i.e., try to raise the wing with the ailerons, but when the wing in near the ground (a few inches), go the other way with the stick and keep the low wing aileron from dragging on the runway. As it turned out, I keep the good outrigger on the ground until the aircraft stopped and one of the wing runners held the wing up all the way to parking where we made the fix. I did increase the fiberglass at the wing tip underside knowing that it might be called upon to take some punishment.
Cheers and hope for great flying this next year.
Posted by Jorgen on Monday, December 31, 2012 @ 04:52 PM:
Great advice Bob,
I've been taught that way too: keep the wings level with ailerons, but once speed drops off and a wing starts to drop give "in-turn" aileron to protect the aileron trailing edge. Having broken quite a few Fournier outriggers I've found that if the wind is not too strong, it's usually no problem to taxi- the weight of the remaining outrigger is enough to keep thewing with the intact outrigger down. Sometimes I strapped something to the wing tip just to taxi to the hangar.
I regards the outriggers as an expendable item which needs changing after a certain amount of time. Factors that influence when you have to change:
-How often you bang the outriggers in the ground pre-touch down (= at high speeds). Strong X-wind, un-even strip, High grass surrounding your strip (I'm guilty of that).
-Outrigger fittings with less that 15 degree aft angle (like mine- outriggers are bent also in the forward direction when taxying, increasing fatigue loads).
I've decided to change outriggers every 200 hours, but, as they say around here- "your mileage may vary"!!
May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen
Posted by jb92563 on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 @ 04:22 PM:
Seems that with all the exotic materials available now we should be able to come up with an outrigger that does not snap but rather flexes to to make sure excessive loads are not transferred to the the wing bracket and is also aerodynamically efficient as well.
I'm thinking some combination of carbon fiber, fiberglass, foam etc and that has an aerodynamic shape.
Once I get out from under my backlog of non-flying projects and winter laziness I may have to bring some brain power to bear on this topic.
Right now I'm learning how to program microprocessors on my laptop during TV commercials and uninteresting programs that the Girlfriend like to watch.
Its a necessary part of my wireless remote GoPro trigger project.
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Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
Posted by Bob Grimstead on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 @ 10:22 PM:
Hiya Ray,
I'm delighted that you're pushing ahead with yor wireless GoPro project.
I am having great difficulty (read 'impossible') editing the good bits out of hours and hours of footage.
If only I had a remote on/off switch, I could 'edit' in flight, and that problem would go away.
I have bought a new button for my Aussie remote lead you made me, but have not yet gotten around to fitting it.
More news as it develops.
Yours, Bob
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Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
Posted by jb92563 on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 @ 10:59 AM:
Every other project I undertake I also end up learning new things, and I do enjoy that even if first efforts are not perfect.
Of course when I get the wireless idea done and tested I'll detail the whole process here for posterity and build/program a couple for friends 
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Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
Posted by Paul Ralph on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 @ 05:49 PM:
Hi Ray, with reference to unbreakable outriggers my experience may prove helpful. The aircraft (Santanna) is similar to a RF5 but with a single mono main wheel, nose wheel ( both separately retractable) and outriggers. The outriggers are 1" dia nylon rods held in a Al tube attached to well reinforced lower skin. ( to avoid any wing structural damage). Uses skate board wheels. Kevlar fairing with the trailing edge unclosed so that the rod can flex backwards without breaking the fairing. The aileron mass balance ports above the wing with down aileron. The outrigger length allows a three degree wing down angle with the main gear shock absorber fully deflected. There is no rearward rake to the outrigger but the wheel is mounted rearward of the stalk in effect doing the sane thing ( about 3 degrees)
I have had two instances where the main gear did not extend ( false micro switch trip) and the aircraft landed on the nose gear, tailskid and outriggers. The only damage ( in both cases) was a melted steel tailskid/tie down and one bent nylon stalk. ( lots of reputation damage though). Both instances on tarmac surface. In the first case the nylon outrigger went back to shape with very gentle microwave warming ( it appears to have a memory like heatshrink tubing). In the second i replaced the nylon rod.
I have since that relocated the micro switch. The cause of false tripping was the Al separators between the polyurethane shock absorber pucks being able to move sideways enough to trip the mico switch.
Apart from that there have been no problems. Only a few landings have been on grass, with about 100 hard surface landings so far. I have considered shortening the outrigger length but only to reduce drag.
regards Paul Ralph
