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Ducellier Alternators printer friendly version
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JamesB
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Posted Wednesday, December 5, 2007 @ 11:06 AM  

Has anyone ever found a replacement for the Ducellier alternators used on the Limbach 1700E ? (Mine is stamped with: 14V 22/30A; 7522C C 4)

I brought a test Nippondenso from a rebuilding shop down to the plane. It is smaller, lighter & has greater output -- but the mounts are reversed (with the main mounting bracket by the pulley rather than at the rear like the Ducellier).

I have tried to contact different suppliers, but they all want to know which car the Ducellier was used on. They don't seem to have any cross references by alternator name/model. Being from France, there's probably a Peugot or Citroen in it's past, but I wouldn't know which one. I also hear that some of the Panteras came with Ducellier's--but it may not be a compatible design.

My alternator is ok -- the but the last time in for servicing, the shop said there were not many more rebuilds in its lifetime. It seems as if we could all benefit from a more modern, single wire replacement.

Any ideas?

(I hope to take both alternators down to a fabricator today to see if there's a way to make a mounting bracket. But to do so, we'd have to grind off the large front mount and create a strap that would hold the Nippondenso. I'm not hopeful--but it's worth the time to check. It would be better to find an alternator that is closer in design to what is needed.)

JamesB
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Posted Wednesday, December 5, 2007 @ 11:10 AM  

Peter has previously posted that he thinks the alternator was from Citroen 2CV, 4CV, or Ami8.

Will try to check further.

JamesB
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Posted Sunday, January 6, 2008 @ 10:37 AM  

Alternator alternative -- no progress.

Have spent some hours trying to find a source for a new alternative, no luck.

A local VW racer recommended Nippondenso alternators as they are small, light & have good output. Yet, when I took one to the plane, it...like almost all the other alternators....has its main mount in the front by the pulley. The Ducellier has its main mount at the rear....something that I just haven't seen.

It was just too awkward to cut off parts of the alternator, then try to fabricate brackets. Some of the older alternators were merely cylindrical in shape....so it was expected that a unique bracket would be fabricated for each application. This approach would work, and we could fabricate a bracket for the Limbach....but all the new alternators I've seen have the mounts cast into the housing. The only simple cylindrical alternators (I've found) are for classic cars and are large & heavy.

If anyone knows of a source for an appropriate, simple cylindrical alternator, let me know. If we could make a bracket to fit the Limbach....I would have my fabricators make it available to everyone else so we'd have a new technology replacement.

So, for the time being I am giving up. My brother goes to Germany about once or twice a year. Will have him get a used Ducellier next time he is there for a spare (as the shop says mine is nearly to the end of its service life).

JamesB
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Posted Wednesday, May 6, 2009 @ 02:07 AM  

Have continued checking on the alternator.

A car enthusiast in Paris, sent me this link, suggesting that it may have been used on a Citroen 2cv:
http://www.euroretro-pieces.com/product_info.php?cPath=161_52_87&products_id=199

More specifically, a Citroen parts supplier in the U.S., says that the Ducellier 7522 alternator was used on the 1968 Citroen Ami6.

I have also found a specifications sheet that says the Ducellier 7522 alternator was used on the 1966-1968 Ami and AK models.

I have emailed the company above asking them if the alternator on their site is a direct replacement for the 7522. Will update as I find out anything.

[Edit by JamesB on Wednesday, May 6, 2009 @ 02:32 AM]

Mike-RM
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Posted Sunday, May 10, 2009 @ 04:31 AM  

Limbach still list the L1700 engine as being available new and the datasheet shows the same alternator setup - What alternator do they use? - maybe they have a secret hord of old stock Ducelliers?
eugenio
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Posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 @ 12:32 PM  

If anyone is interested, Ducati Elettronica produces a generator similar to the others used by Limbach. It's used by Sauer on front installed generator like the Falke's powerplants. I found also one on a Sauer modified Rectimo equipped with generator and starter.

Eugenio

eugenio
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Posted Monday, May 18, 2009 @ 02:05 PM  

I found the PN of the Bosch 12V 33A alternator used on the L2000. BOSCH 0 120 339 536; G1 14V 33A 27; I saw on the Internet that there are lots of alternative generators for that type.

ciao

Eugenio

eugenio
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Posted Sunday, December 6, 2009 @ 03:09 PM  

A new advice about alternators for Limbach. I confirm that Bosch PN 0-120-339-536 is used on Limbachs. The alternator is an original equipment for Case IH, Fendt, Ferrari, Lombardini and VM engines (Agricultural machines, Tractors). Another possibility is Bosch PN 0-120-339-537 that is a little smaller and with only 18 A output power.
These alternators are still in production, I found them on the Bosch catalog 2006/2007

Eugenio

jb92563
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Posted Friday, May 6, 2011 @ 12:28 PM  

I just ordered a Cross Referenced Alternator to the BOSCH 0 120 339 536 from www.madisontractor.com
for $109 USD including a $30 refundable core charge, produces 14v @ 33A.

I will know soon whether it is a perfect replacement. for the L2000.

An auto site in the EU wanted 650 euros for the original Bosch Alternator....wow!

--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
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eugenio
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Posted Friday, January 17, 2014 @ 03:06 PM  

Browsing the web under suggestion of Mike Millar and Patrick Faucheron I found these sources for a replacement alternator. It is exactly the same as the original Ducellier you only have to machine the support to make it like Limbach did, and maybe to move forward the pulley to match the distance. Below you have the links.

Eugenio

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-2-CV-Alternator-CEVAM-4118-/281123737730

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Lichtmaschine-Citroen-2CV4-2CV6-LNA-Mehari-Ami-/390143849821?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item5ad662b55d

Martin Hill
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Posted Friday, January 24, 2014 @ 12:23 PM  

Be careful here friends!
The alternators in the pictures is are most likely a Ducellier 7532 not the 7522 fitted to Limbachs. The difference is in the bottom mounting. If you look at the ebay pictures and the ones from my engine you will see the bracket is on the front (pulley)housing not the rear, and so very much closer to the pulley.
[URL][/URL] https://picasaweb.google.com/102632250290288840669/EnginePhotos?authkey=Gv1sRgCJS3xc-e28n1WA# (hope that works!)

A few years ago I went through the same process and got documents that showed the 7522 was fitted to the 2CV and Mehari-Ami. I found the replacement Valeo number and ordered one from France. It was about Euro80. I got an absolutely new unit. On the box it lists the 2CV4, 2CV6 and Mehari-Ami and had the correct Valeo cross-reference number. Inside it has 7532 on it and it doesn't fit. OK, not a disaster as the internals are identical and so it is possible to rebuild the new 7532 internals into the old 7522 housing.

Subsequently I learned a french colleague at my company is a expert restorer of 2CVs. He confirmed the 7532 was the correct alternator for the cars mentioned. I suspect that (rather like the carbs) Peter Limbach bought up some old stock. Maybe some 2CVs had the 7522 but they got changed early on or never went to production with the 7522.

Limbach do have a modification to upgrade the alternators (to Bosch?). For amusement I asked them how much. I can't remember now the exact answer but it was a ridiculous amount of money - like Euro 1800 for the mod plus the several hundred Euro for the alternator.

At the end of the day the Ducellier is a noisy basic alternator. The best replacement plan may be to go to a good auto-electrical shop and ask if they can find something that will fit with minimum change. I am not sure if the mounting pillar on the accessory housing can be shortened as it will need to be threaded to hold the alternator bottom bracket. For now I have a solution.

The reason I might want to change the Ducellier is that I get a background hum in my headset. I think it is the intercom wiring as I also hear a tick from the Skymap II and a quiet pulsed crackle from the new Trig Mode S transponder (but only with the u/c down). The hum is definitely the residual alternating voltage from the alternator which I have managed to reduce by using a solid state regulator and suppressors (capacitors). At the moment it is consigned to the Paretto category (80% effort to solve last 20% of problem).

Martin
https://picasaweb.google.com/102632250290288840669/EnginePhotos?authkey=Gv1sRgCJS3xc-e28n1WA#

[Edit by Martin Hill on Friday, January 24, 2014 @ 12:31 PM]

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RF5 #5107 G-BEVO

JamesB
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Posted Monday, January 27, 2014 @ 03:48 PM  

For what it's worth, I tried for a year to get a spare 7522. A fellow in Paris even checked local parts outlets. Plenty of 7532's (and people claiming that's what I really wanted).

Examined the possibility of using a 7522 casing as a mount for another alternator--but the casing materials didn't seem suitable.

What I don't know is whether you can replace the 7522 internals with those from a 7532 -- or if there would be any value in that.

One option would be to take measurements from a 7522 to create a CNC housing for Bosch, etc., internals. In effect, creating a new alternator. But with such a small possible market, wasn't able to generate ;-) much enthusiasm from local shops for such a small run. So, until I get my own CNC to play with--was simply left with the 7522 as is.

Martin Hill
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Posted Wednesday, January 29, 2014 @ 12:18 PM  

Well James there is a recon 7522 for sale on ebay
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CITROEN-2-CV-AMI-6-DYANE-4-Alternateur-DUCELLIER-7522-Neuf-/201027936443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_71&hash=item2ece32e0bb#ht_1481wt_1314

I think I have got to the bottom of the story. The 7522 was fitted to 2CVs between March 1966 and May 1968 after which it changed to a 7534 or 7532. Citroen changed the mount. Ha my friend Thierry didn't know that - but then he is not that old. I guess by the late 60's Mr Ducellier had a shedload of 7522s spare that Limbach bought. Valeo no longer make a replacement for the 7522 or 7542 (also used on early Citroens).

You can get most of spares for the 7522 (eg from Wood Auto Supplies) except the housings/brackets, which of course is the issue. There are a few housings available on ebay front p/n 606379, rear 618291. Buying replacement rotors and stators for the 7522, is not economical as the parts cost more than a complete new unit. The cheaper solution is to buy a new 7532 - but it must be a new genuine Valeo/Ducellier 433351 - and swap the internals. The 7522, 7532, 7534 i.e. 433351 have the same internals. I have a list of the part numbers if anyone wants and a generic drawing.

To dismantle - remove the pulley and brush box, undo the connections to the stator, the unit is held together by 3 through bolts. Remove these and the whole thing pulls apart. In changing parts you might encounter rivets where there are screws in the original unit e.g. on the coverplate for the front bearing. Easy enough to deal with.

www.woodauto.com

Martin

--------------------
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eugenio
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Posted Monday, February 3, 2014 @ 03:42 PM  

I confirm that the advertised alternator is a good substitute for the Ducellier, but only for those engines with the new accessory case, all older engine needs the other model of alternator, with different attaching points. It is the same for the Bosch alternator mentioned above. The only difference is that the Ducellier has the case with the rear bearing support smaller in diameter, while this one (like the Bosch or the Motorola) is all the same diameter, so it may hit the engine mount, but if this happen the case can be filed to fit without any risk of damage. It is cheap because it's made in China, but since now the Limbach ownership is chinese I gess most of the parts for their engines comes from there. I've been told not only the cylinder heads, cylinders and piston are made there, but now also the cases .... and if you look for VW parts in USA now you mainly find AA Performance parts, that comes from China.

Eugenio

Roger.Camp
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Posted Tuesday, February 4, 2014 @ 06:13 AM    YIM

The alternators from Kubota are supposed to be very small in dimensions. I have the details somewhere and will post them by the WE. The chinese made components used in the limbach are just as good and in somecases better than the Mexican made stuff. Original german made are only to be found in NOS stock (New off Shelf) and normally only on EBAY (D).I am using AA components in my rebuild and so far the quality is on a par with the mexican components.

OK checked. It is the Kubota alternator with the part number 15531-64010 and is certified for fitment. details here (unfortunately in german)
http://www.cfi-ev.scram.de/dev/wp-content/uploads/1998/02/RF3-RF4-TMCFI_FA_01_95_Certification_Generator.pdf

regards

Roger

[Edit by Roger.Camp on Tuesday, February 4, 2014 @ 10:41 AM]

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It takes 1.460 bolts to build an aircraft and 1 nut to spread it over the landscape

eugenio
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Posted Tuesday, February 4, 2014 @ 03:00 PM  

The Kubota is certified for the RF3 and 4, not for the RF5, so this makes no sense. Plus the Kubota need a different voltage regulator and a different wiring, while the other is a replacement that don't need modifications, at least in the wiring. About the quality of the Chinese produced parts, at the moment I only had to deal with cylinders and pistons that seems acceptable quality more or less like the Mahle, I not yet had the opportunity to try the heads and the cases, so I can't say how they are.

Eugenio

Roger.Camp
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Posted Wednesday, February 5, 2014 @ 03:10 AM    YIM

OK i didnt know this was for a RF 5. And i did read the rest with the additional regulatro etc. (commonn sense really). I have used chinese heads, "better" than the Mexican heads and on a par with the german ones. I have heard the chinese cases are of the same quality.

Roger

--------------------
It takes 1.460 bolts to build an aircraft and 1 nut to spread it over the landscape

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