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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
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Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
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 Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 @ 05:30 PM
I have the tail handle hole on my RF4D, but it did not come with the handle itself.
What is the OD diameter of the tube that is used for the handle?
How is it fastened in place?
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Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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Bob Brock
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 @ 08:23 PM
Ray:
Mine is sold steel, not a tube... you can see it on the post for fiber-glassing the fuselage that I posted yesterday... see the album. I was going to remove it but it is fasted on the inside and not sure how you can get there... but I will look again and take some pictures from the inside and give you the measurements. Actually, you might consider just patching the hole as you would reduce drag. I am not sure when the factory started putting the handles on the aircraft (mine is SN.4122)... Collin does not have one on his. Cheers, Bob
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Bob Grimstead
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Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 @ 11:15 PM
Hi Guys,
My British Fournier has the handle but my Aussie one does not, and I sure would like to fit one. The tail gets slippery with oil after aerobatics, and I'm very concerned about dropping it while manoeuvring the airplane into my hangar, not to mention putting out my back, since it's getting weaker by the year.
Any drawings, photos or advice on how to make and fit a handle would be much appreciated.
WGN's handle is steel tube, probabaly 5/8-in or 3/4-in diameter.
If we used aerofoil section streamlined tubing (like Cub/Champ jury strut tubing, or step tubing -- presumably thicker-walled) that might be a little less draggy, although by the time the airflow gets all the way back down to the tail it is far from laminar, and very turbulent, so it might not make very much difference.
Yours, Bob
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Markku
Master Sergeant
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Location: Kouvola, Finland, EFWB
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 03:06 AM
The handle is a tube with both ends closed with welded plate, I have it also in my plane, unfortunately didn't find any photos of connection to fuselage.
Fuselage side is strenghtened inside around the handle, so it is not a simple job to add it afterwards, connection to side plywood is done by two flanges screved to fuselage and the tube is bolted (M4) to one of these flanges.
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Markku
Master Sergeant
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Location: Kouvola, Finland, EFWB
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 03:17 AM
| Quote: |  | | Originally posted by Bob Grimstead
The tail gets slippery with oil after aerobatics, and I'm very concerned about dropping it while manoeuvring the airplane into my hangar, not to mention putting out my back, since it's getting weaker by the year.
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Hello Bob
Have you checked your fuselage inside, I know one RF-4 in Finland which had bad damages in fuselage bottom plywood and fuselage bottom spars due to engine oil, the oil fumes were stroken in to the fuselage trough the bottom water holes. This plane has also a long aerobatic history.
Markku
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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 05:24 AM
Hi Markku,
Yes, I am careful to wipe off all the oil quickly, after I get the Fournier into my hangar, so up until now there is no fuselage damage. It is the job of getting the aeroplane up the slope and into the hangar while it is still oily that is difficult without that handle.
I guessed that, like everything else in a Fournier, fitting those handles would not be easy, but I am about to take off the tailplane to check the internal fittings, so now would be a good time to do it.
Does anybody have a drawing or a photo of the internal structure to which the handle bolts?
Yours, Bob
[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 05:25 AM]
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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 05:44 AM
Hi again Folks,
This thread should be of interest.
http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=GhmIgT1HcnsiemLtlYvuZiWOqD&forum=18&thread=488
The retractable handle is an even better idea. Drawings anybody?
Yours, Bob
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jb92563
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 11:39 AM
Sounds like there is a lot of variation in the handles.
Even the location does not seem consistent as mine has its hole just below the leading edge of the stab, where some pictures seem to show it further down perhaps 6".
I like the idea of a retractible.
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Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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Bob Brock
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 12:51 PM
Here is a picture from inside the fuselage of SN 4122... I tried to take pictures of everything before I started to remove parts. The ant. cable was for a LORAN and since removed along with a strap that found its way to the rear some years ago. I thought about a retractable handle but did not want to rebuild the original since it looks like it was built to stay. Also, since I will hang the aircraft in my hanger it might be a good lift point. As mentioned in the fiber glassing of the fuselage thread, I did seal the handle to prevent water from getting into the fuselage. Bob point is well taken and I may build a fairing or at least make the handle to have less drag. Anyway, please click on the link below for the image.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=PHOTO&id=5431459678072289122&aid=5431459663629851105&authkey=Gv1sRgCKWopKWovsrCkgE&feat=email
Cheers,
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Markku
Master Sergeant
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Location: Kouvola, Finland, EFWB
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 05:40 PM
I found also one foto of the tube, (added on the D-box covering file).
One posibility to customise the handle might be like this: Cut the existing handle even to fuselage side surface on both sides, then you have a open tube cross the fuselage, and you can lift the plane with a separate steel bar placed to that hole, when flying open holes can be covered with a piece of tape.
http://picasaweb.google.com/markkuk04
[Edit by Markku on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 06:04 PM]
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Jorgen
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Location: Lund, Sweden
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 07:09 PM
Hi Guys,
good topic, I think a handle is paramount for a good ground handling of the 4, it's just so easy to lift it up and carry it to were you want without stressing your back. XST has as been noted in that other thread a neat mod regarding the tail handle- it can be retracted. I don´t have any drawings as my impression was it was a somewhat unofficial mod, but it must be done something like Markku suggested although I think the diameter of the handle is enlarged compared to the one (original?) Bob has on AWGN, something like 1,5 cm (1/2 inch). It's also spring loaded and by pressing and twisting it pops out. Very convenient.
Regarding RF 5b's, as you know I've had maybe a closer look at the handle installation inside the fuselage than I would have wished for. It has a similar reinforcement as the one on Markku's picture, but larger. The handle is just a bar inserted from the left side and fixed with two screws in the wood through a flange. When installing the bar, finding the hole on the right side can be difficult, and that must be the reason for that peculiar AD for RF 5's- you know the one were you are supposed to check for chafing marks from the rudder wires on the bar. If the wires are very loose and saggy they can of course chafe the bar. Another possible reason must be that if you poke around to much with the bar trying to find the hole on the right side you might trap the rudder wires so the bar have to act as an "involuntary" pulley. Or is there another reason for that AD?
As (another) aside, UDI has a row of forward-looking seaplane grommets at regular intervals on the underside of the rear fuselage, probably to improve ventilation and reduce the risk of that other AD- the one about rear fuselage rot without improved draining at the rear. You can see that some grit has been entering through the grommets- but then again, RF5b's are not even mildly aerobatic so the risk of oil vents entering there is probably negligible.
May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen
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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 08:11 PM
Hi Guys,
Thanks for those photos, they're invaluable.
We've seen a Fournier with a four-inch inspection hole cut in the flat fuselage top under the front of the horizontal stabilizer (with a reinforced surround, of course), and a broom handle fitted across the rear fuselage as a lifting handle, so it can be done as a retrofit.
I must get to it after my open-cockpit mod (next week's task).
Yours, Bob
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Bob Brock
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 @ 09:53 PM
Greetings:
Here are two more pictures... on real careful inspection, I think the handle is actually a steel tube about 14 1/2" long, and 14mm or 9/16" (about) in diameter. If it is a tube, I can think of some neat ways to make it work better for me... like cutting it off near the fuselage and using a steel rod with attachments to go through it, but for now I am just leaving it a original. I should have the primer on this week... rolled the primer on the underside while I had it upside down and my house filled with fumes since my garage is part of the house.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=Bomar1&target=PHOTO&id=5431599930221393426&aid=5431599900452116865&authkey=Gv1sRgCN3avaiU4arMsQE&feat=email
More on the painting very soon.
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Markku
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 @ 01:53 AM
I think the tube is 14mm outer diameter, most of original tubes are metric sizes, not easily available nowadays.
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Bob Grimstead
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 @ 09:47 PM
Thanks Bob and Markku,
The handle on WGN is definitely a tube, because you can see the (high quality) welding at the end.
I don't reckon they automatically fitted them after a certain airframe number. I suspect it was an optional mod because WGN (4084) has it and HDO (4093) does not.
Yours, Bob
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Jorgen
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 06:08 PM
Hi Guys,
took a picture of the handle insertion on the RF 5b today, snapping a picture blindly through the crack in the plywood. The handle bar is black and you can see the reinforced part of the bulkhead were it's inserted. I think the reinforcment in the bulkhead looks a lot like the one on RF 4's according to Markku's picture.
This is the folded handle on RF 4 "SE-XST", I apologize for my crude "tape and foam"-fairing
..and this is the handle unfolded, ready for lifting
Here is the opposite side, the right side.
I don't have any drawings, so I think I have to dismantle the handle to see how it's made. Somehow I feel a certain aversion to unecessary dismantle a serviceable aircraft....
May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen
[Edit by Jorgen on Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 06:21 PM]
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
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Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 09:33 PM
Jorgen,
What is the hole near the stabilizer?
That is the hole I have on my RF4D that I just assumed is for the Handle.
Perhaps it was relocated on yours, or does that other hole serve some other purpose?
--------------------
Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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Bob Brock
Master Sergeant
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 @ 11:41 PM
That hole allows you to reach a bolt and remove the front anchor point of the horizontal stabilizer. If you look in with a light you will see it, and it comes out through that opening (hole) in the fuselage. Be very careful as there is no support behind the opening and it is thin and fragile wood. You can use tape or a cap to plug the hole if you like... but again, it is fragile. Cheers,
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
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Posts: 583
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Posted Saturday, January 30, 2010 @ 01:14 AM
Ahaaaaa!
Thanks Bob for that clarification.
This means that I do not have a tail handle after all.
I'll tape that hole over with glider gap seal tape.
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Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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