Posted by JamesB on Tuesday, February 6, 2007 @ 04:00 PM:
I am going to start the process of getting a new set of canopies for my '75 RF5B. Under some conditions, it is possible to get a discount on a larger order than just a single set. If there is anyone else in the U.S. who would want to submit a combined order, let me know and we can work out the details.
Options include having them made in Europe and shipped back or trying to work with Ray Poquette at Thermotec in California who wants to make molds and fabricate them here from plastic with a UV filter in it.
Obviously, we could combine orders for the front canopy with other RF3's or RF4's.
Posted by dannparks on Tuesday, February 6, 2007 @ 04:40 PM:
I will be needing a new RF4 canopy shortly. Collin has also been discussing the need for a canopy source. I would prefer a US source to make shipping and logistics easier, but I'm open to whatever works best for the group making the order.
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Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
Posted by SteveBeaver on Tuesday, February 6, 2007 @ 06:55 PM:
I would be interested in getting a spare RF4D canopy. N7724 has a several cracks in it and will have to be replaced before long.
Steve
Posted by patrick on Friday, February 9, 2007 @ 01:38 PM:
We have in Germany a good canopy maker see www.plexiweiss.de
we, CFI owns our own forms for the RF5 front and back canopy (not fitting for the Rf5 B Sperber).
but fitting for the RF4 D see picture below.
Our moulds are stored at Weiss plastic ( Munich)
Eugenio Lanza also owns a RF4/RFb5 form at Weiss plastics.
2 years ago Weiss asked for a bath of 3 canopies 445 Euro /each ( approx. 580 ud dol) plus 156 us dol for the window.
The transport for 3 canopies are the same as for one canopy if they are stacked. Sea container is not so expensive. Maybe you could contact Plastik Weiss (Stefan Brecht) or Eugenio and check his CIF quote for 3 units. The quality is excellent.
Patrick
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by eugenio on Friday, February 9, 2007 @ 03:20 PM:
Rf5 canopy fits the RF4, but is not the correct shape. RF4's is taller, and since all you US guys are tall, the RF5 canopy is not for you.
Eugenio
Posted by Collin on Friday, February 9, 2007 @ 04:30 PM:
Hello,
I am checking with a friend in Southern California to have a mold made for the RF4 and RF5B. I should have a anwser soon. I would like to have more head room. I am 6'3" (190cm) tall.
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Collin Gyenes
Posted by Bob Grimstead on Saturday, February 10, 2007 @ 10:13 AM:
Hi Guys,
I'm in Australia with a cracked canopy, and needing a new one, so I'm also interested in whatever's going.
With my air vent mod (see Bob's mods) I shan't want the little side window. It is just another source of cracks.
I see the illustration above shows a non-standard RF4 canopy which just would not give me enough headroom (I'm 6ft 1in). Is that Eugenio's canopy?
Dave Bland (Fournier UK) and other guys have said that Rene originally used a pre-existing glider canopy, perhaps from the K13? I'm not a glider expert, but if somebody had the chance to compare, we might find there's already a source for these.
I have taped up my crack, and was going to wait until the World CFI Days at Gap to see what the Weiss Plastics canopies looked like, before committing to buying one.
At 2,500 Euros inc shipping each, I reckon Gabrielle Krewinkle's 'official' RF4 canopies must incorproate gold film heating elements!
Yours, Bob
Posted by patrick on Saturday, February 10, 2007 @ 06:57 PM:
Bob,
what you see on the above pic (yellow-green Rf5 with a 2100 cc engine !!) is a RF 5 canopy mounted on a RF4 d . What Eugenio says is correct: the RF5 canopy is lower but is not a problem as far as I know.
By the way Weiss quoted 2004 a price of 414 Euro ( = 540 us dol) for a batch of 5 units....
Patrick
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by Donald on Sunday, February 11, 2007 @ 11:25 AM:
My RF3 also has damage to a rear corner of an otherwise OK canopy but I would only consider replacing it with one that had the original profile. Personally, I think the lines of the RF3 and RF4 are spoiled by using that RF5 canopy, quite aside from the issue of headroom.
Posted by Bob Grimstead on Monday, February 12, 2007 @ 04:45 AM:
Hi Guys, As you can see, there's not a lot of room, even under the standard RF4 canopy for my big head, so I'm also looking for a standard one. Yours, Bob
Posted by eugenio on Monday, February 12, 2007 @ 06:33 PM:
Surely if you can do your own moulds it's easier and cheaper than buying the canopies in the Old Continent (just for a shipping problem), but be aware that for doing a canopy that fits either RF4 and RF5B, you must do a mould larger in excess at least 50 cm on the rear, 30 cm on the front and 20 cm each side, in order to have room to slide it to reach the correct position. This means that you waste a lot of plexy, and this is why the canopies made on my moulds are more expensive than those of Patrick, that fits only the RF5 with very little waste.
Eugenio
Posted by Bob Grimstead on Monday, February 12, 2007 @ 09:06 PM:
Thanks Eugenio,
Can you please show us a photograph of an RF4 canopy taken from your mould?
Thanks, Bob
Posted by JamesB on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 @ 12:18 PM:
For myself, I would like to get the best canopy that I can get at a reasonable price. Saving a few bucks and living with greater distortion, etc., is not a good choice for me.
On the other hand, it seems that there are at least 3 people in the U.S. that could use canopies and we should factor in exchange rates, shipping from Europe & any customs/import fees into the total picture.
Does anyone know if the canopies from Europe normally contain a UV filter in the plastic? (Since it is clear, you can't tell just by looking.)
Posted by patrick on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 @ 06:04 PM:
From all the above mails I understand that you are now 3 guys needing a RF4+RF5B canopy.
One way cam be to getr them from Weiss in Germany usingm Eugenio mould.
Transport Germany-Usa for 3 units cannot be so expensive.
I can imagine that we can then increase batch to 5 pcs lower the price.
But since Eugenio is owner of the mould this deal at Weiss must be monitored by Eurgenio and nobody else.
Alternative you have your own mould RF4/RF5B done in the US.
Oversize of the mould should not exceed 10 cm = 4 inch in all directions.#
But for making a mould you need an original canopy.
I did one last year for teh rear RF5 canopy and Eugenio for the RF4 + RF5B front.
You need a lot of material, glass, epoxy or polyester.
Making a mould means investing a lot of time and quite a lot of money for material !
And you never know in advance now good the endprodcvut will be .
A front canopy is a critical matter. Keep that in mind !
Guys what I can tell you: the front RF5 canopies made ny Weiss are perfect.
Eugenio´s RF4-RF5B are for sure perfect too.
Think of that before doing anything !
Patrick
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by patrick on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 @ 06:09 PM:
Again the mould for the RF5 rear canopy ( not suiting the RF5 B)
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by Bob Grimstead on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 02:21 AM:
Hi Guys,
I remember hearing somewhere that the RF3 and RF4 used a pre-existing glider canopy. It might have been from a Schleicher Ka 13 (or maybe a K7?)
Rene Fournier was no fool, it would have been much easier for him to buy canopies off the shelf than to make them in-house or have them expensively blown by a specialist company. My local canopy maker says it is always far easier to adapt the turtledeck to an exisiting canopy than to adapt a canopy to a pre-formed fuselage.
Somebody, somewhere should surely be operating his RF3 or RF4 at a glider/soaring field where he can compare Fournier canopies with 'real' gliders. Maybe that way we could save having to go to all the trouble of making a mould?
Yours, Bob
Posted by dannparks on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 04:55 PM:
Maybe someone could ask Rene about this. No better place than to go to the source.
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Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
Posted by SteveBeaver on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 05:12 PM:
The canopy on N7724 has a sticker on it from a US plexiglass company. - Don't remember which one, but I'll look next time I am at the airport.
Steve
Posted by patrick on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 07:54 PM:
This RF4 D-KAQI has got an ASK canopy but I don´t know which exact model.
Patrick
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by patrick on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 08:00 PM:
I have already installed several canopies and I can say the following: The raw plexyglas is rather soft and flexible.
Since the raw part has oversize, I believe that it is possible to adapt any raw canopy on any frame.
The canopy only become rigid after fixation on the frame.
Any raw and oversized canopy must be cut and adjusted . It is not an easy job but a risky job !
Patrick
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by patrick on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 04:57 PM:
RF5 b Sperber canopies : interesting variation coming from Australia :
Patrick
[img]http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2190/sperbercanopyvhgcaoe8.jpg[/img)
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by patrick on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 05:00 PM:
let´s try it again:
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by JamesB on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 11:21 PM:
I talked to Thermotec in California who will make front & rear canopies for about $1500 each. UV filter/tinting/crating & shipping are extra -- but not unreasonable. However, he needs an original set of canopies to use to make molds. While I can remove mine, my hangar is an open one (more like a sunshade). Also, to be selfish, if I use mine, I won't be flying for about 4-6 weeks. Does a U.S. owner have a set of used, original canopies that you kept after replacing them with newer ones? It would be good to have a source for new ones in the U.S.
Thanks.
[Edit by JamesB on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 11:22 PM]
Posted by patrick on Friday, March 9, 2007 @ 08:16 PM:
The Austrian " poor man" version:
[img)http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3545/sperbercabrio1yj7.jpg[/img]
[img)http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9831/sperbercabrio3ir9.jpg[/img)
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by patrick on Friday, March 9, 2007 @ 08:22 PM:
The Austrian " poor man" version:
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by patrick on Friday, March 9, 2007 @ 08:25 PM:
Poor man canopy:
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Patrick, Speyer - Germany RF5 D-KOPF
Posted by JamesB on Saturday, March 10, 2007 @ 01:12 PM:
Patrick -- that's Fantastic! I feel a project coming on.......
Is that a fiberglass/composite construction? The inside shot almost looks like fabric over a frame.
Posted by SteveBeaver on Saturday, March 10, 2007 @ 11:51 PM:
The canopy on my RF4D has a sticker on it marked "Aircraft Windshield Company, Los Alamitos, California. It also has "Fournier RF4" and a part number engraved in the plastic.
The company is still in business so it might be worth calling them to see if they can still make this canopy.
Phone: (562) 430-8108, Fax: (562) 598-0716 or mail to Aircraft Windshield Company, 10871 Kyle Street, Los Alamitos, CA 90720
Steve
Posted by dannparks on Sunday, March 11, 2007 @ 01:49 PM:
I also found another source for canopies. Todd Silver has a shop called Todds Canopies (www.toddscanopies.com) in Ft. Lauderdale, FL. He makes lots of different canopies for experimental aircraft at very reasonable prices. Check out the website and you'll see what looks like some pretty nice work and references.
I have been emailing him about doing RF4D canopies (and sent him some photos) and he thinks he can do them for $400, or maybe a bit more. It looks like he can also do tints, but I have not asked about UV protection. I'm sure he could do RF5B's as well. His canopies are for experimental aircraft only, so they may not be legal in Europe. (Don't know about Oz, Bob)
He also said he could make them a bit taller to help with headroom issues. They do not have holes in them for vents or the sliding window, so you'll have to work that out yourself.
He also says he has had good luck using FedEX ground to ship small canopies and the RF4D canopy might just be small enough in a snug container. Crating is included in his price.
He seems like a good source. Does anyone know about his work? I may give him a shot at my canopy. He said he would be fine making one (for $400+) and could then make multiples if we liked his work.
[Edit by dannparks on Sunday, March 11, 2007 @ 05:08 PM]
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Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
Posted by Bob Grimstead on Sunday, March 11, 2007 @ 10:06 PM:
Great work Dann,
This guy Todd sounds like a real good source. My Fournier is experimental, exhibition, so it's no problem where the canopy comes from.
Yesterday I put a straight-edge along the top of my rear fuselage, and by the time it gets to where my head is under the canopy, the canopy has already started sloping downwards towards the nose by maybe an inch and a half, so it seems there's scope for increasing headroom a little without increasing ugliness too much.
I had been going to wait until the CFI World Days in Gap to take a look at Eugenio's canopy, but if this guy Todd can make an optically perfect one sooner, and particularly if he can very slightly increase the headroom, then you can count me in on your order. The most important area is straight ahead, over the instrument panel, where you look forward to land at an acute angle through the Plexiglas. It's hard to get that optially good, although the original Fournier canopy did a great job.
Can you find out what shipping would cost (by the cheapest means) to Perth, Western Australia? Surface is fine. It'll take a few months, but the airplane is not grounded, so that's OK.
Oh and the cut-outs. I really do NOT want them. That's where all the cracks started, by the screws holing the little sliding window, and at the corners if its cut-out. With my fresh-air-in-the-face vent mod (see 'Bob's Mods' on Collin's web site) I get all the fresh air I need.
Thanks for all the homework.
Yours, Bob
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