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Engine Capacity Increase 1200cc to 1400cc printer friendly version
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Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Thursday, July 3, 2008 @ 09:33 AM  

Hi Folks,

Elsewhere on this site, I’ve posted the comment that the upgrade from 1200cc to 1400cc is a simple matter of whipping off the cylinder heads and substituting 83mm barrels, pistons & rings for the original 77mm units – an afternoon’s work.

Well, that’s true, but if you want a safe installation, there’s lots more to consider and to do.

Increasing power by nearly twenty per cent is great. But with it comes the need to increase everything else: fuel flow, intake air flow, exhaust air flow, cooling inlet air and cooling exhaust air. You might also need to change your propeller, to prevent the engine over-revving.

Climb Speed
Climb speed will need to be increased, because Vx and Vy (best climb rate and angle speeds) depend upon engine power as well as aerodynamics, and go up with increased power. I use 60 knots or 70 mph for my 1400 Fourniers, but that’s just a guess. It also helps with cooling inside those tight cowlings.

Compression Ratio
Increasing your cylinder capacity without changing the combustion chamber volume will automatically increase the compression ratio. Depending on the number of shims under your cylinders, cooling airflow, valve and ignition timing, among other variables, this could easily take your engine into the area of overheating, detonation and pre-ignition. I don’t know. Do you?

Did you measure your combustion chamber area and add under-cylinder shims to retain your original 7 to 1 compression ratio? Do you need to change your ignition timing?

Fuel Flow
An increase in capacity demands a proportional increase in fuel flow. The only guide I have to the maximum flow needed is in the Rectimo brochure, which says ‘Consommation d’ essence maxi 13,5l’ .There is also a graph in the Rectimo manual which suggests that the fuel flow at full throttle is nearer 14 litres per hour. Dividing by 12 and multiplying by 14 suggests the 1400 motor will use at least 16.4 lph. This is at the main jet, of course, so the best way to measure it is to put just a little fuel in the tank (you want to be sure you can go around at full power after a long cross-country), whip off the air filter casting, unscrew the main jet and time (with a stopwatch or sweep second hand) the flow into a measured container.

I found that, without opening up the original 2mm needle valve jet, I only got 13 litres per hour. I drilled it out to 2.5 mm and subsequently got 74 litres per hour. Our English Fournier has a proper 2.5 mm needle valve jet, and this passes 68 litres per hour. Both are more than enough.

Depending on whether your fuel lines have ever been replaced, you might need to change those too.

Intake Air Flow
With luck, the increased suction from your bigger motor will suck more air through the carburettor’s venturi, and in turn that will suck out more fuel through the main jet. Or maybe not. Have you checked? What colour are your spark plugs after a few hours of full-throttle flying? What is your average fuel consumption? It might feel great if your 1400 motor seems very economical, but will it last very long if it is running too weak (and therefore, too hot)?

Whatever happens, you will have nearly twenty per cent more air whistling through those skinny intake pipes and nearly twenty per cent more fuel evaporating in there. This is a very good recipe for carburettor icing – especially on a warm, humid day. Remember, warm air can hold more moisture than cold air, so while carburettor icing is more common in winter, it will always be more severe in summer. And for various reasons, carb icing is more of a problem with auto fuel (mogas) than avgas.

Exhaust Air Flow
Have you opened up your exhausts by twenty per cent? I prised open the ‘fishtails’ and drilled out all the little holes to one size bigger. What have you done to improve your exhaust flow?

Now go to the next post to cover cooling problems with all this extra power and heat.

Yours, Bob

andy1
Unregistered

Posted Thursday, July 3, 2008 @ 07:41 PM  

Hi Bob and all,

I have to comment a little bit on this. As I said earlier in this forum, 20% more power does NOT equal 20% of more fuel consumption, so some of these thoughts are kind of pointless. If you get it right, you have an engine that works better, has more power = doesn't need to be driven on full power all the time and all in all get even better fuel economy. To give some idea I have measured our RF4D to use some 9,5-10,5 l/h in relatively fast cruise. Then we have the G109 with L2000, 80hp, 435 more of MTOW. Even the engine size should add 60%, power more that 50% and there is not the more than double weight added. It used 13,7 l/h last summer. I have done a few kind of similar jobs in the automobile world and no, the increased power does not equal in fuel consumption.

Good thoughts, though. Anyway, we are talking of some 6-8 hp, in practice almost nothing. Of course it's good to have those things done. I believe you can get even more power that way, not that the engine would insist them to be done.

Part of combustion chamber is actually part of cylinder. So, if you bore them bigger, you'll also increase the size of chambers. The compression ratio will increase a bit, but what the heck, it gives more power. These engines were designed to use some 80 octane lamp oil. As we fly with 100LL or modern MOGAS, it takes the marginally increased compression with no problem. You don't need to worry about detonation and thus the timing. Perhaps you don't want to set it to tolerance minimum, 28 degrees if my mind serves me correctly, but even that shouldn't be a problem.

Fuel flow thing is another thing. #250 needle valve jet should really work fine with these conversions. Our club plane was equipped with #175 jet and that caused a problem after engine rebuild (hey, it has 77,5 mm pistons ). It wouldn't run at full power. We changed that to #250 from another RF4D and away went the problems.

The carburettor should function so that it mixes the air and gas pretty much correctly with different power settings. So I believe a bit better suction doesn't make any harm to mixture. In any case you can fly with different settings. The standard "air cleaner" should be thrown somewhere where it cannot be found anymore and replaced with a modern proper one. I just did that with a K&N.

If you fly with normal or full power, you don't have problems with icing. That occurs during long glides on idle or near. No matter if you shoot it a bit more on cruise or aerobatics. Just remember mister Bernoulli

And then the exhaust part. The pipes are large enough and they are almost straight (rear ones are). They'll lead the gas out. The fishtails form a slight back pressure that help the engine perform better. The holes work as "silencers". By drilling them you'll get a different sound, not much else.

So, I believe the things you might like to do, is install a bit bigger valves, at least make sure you intake and exhaust channels enable sufficient air flow. Then the air cleaner and needle valve and that's pretty much it. When you go to bigger engines or bigger modifications, then there's a lot more to do, but not necessarily with this one.

Just my two cents

-Antti-

--------------------

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Tuesday, June 7, 2011 @ 12:00 PM  

I took delivery today of a package for a little maintenance.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0Bz-I_UvV0ugJGVshD46NQ?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-j2uFVgBDYA7CksZMDylYA?feat=directlink
One of my present 83mm dia cylinders gets oily and my compressions are less even than I'd like so I decided to get new ones.
Collin
Unregistered

Posted Tuesday, June 7, 2011 @ 12:30 PM  

Hi Donald,

It looks like you have 83mm 1500 piston set (1593cc). They are for the longer rod and 69mm crankshaft. They also are 22mm gudgeon pin (wrist pin).

The kit you are looking for is the aftermarket 83mm Big Bore Kit. 20mm gudgeon pin and they are flat tops. About 7-1 compression ratio out of the box. Mill the heads to 44cc and the compression is 8-1. 8-1 is fine if using Premium fuel or 100LL.

Collin

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Tuesday, June 7, 2011 @ 02:22 PM  

Oh no, what a dope! I hadn't realised there was more than one variety of 83mm piston. Have you any idea where the correct items can be had?
Collin
Unregistered

Posted Tuesday, June 7, 2011 @ 04:02 PM  

Hi Donald,

I found 2 sets of Mahle Brazil (not China) They are $215 plus shipping.

Collin

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Tuesday, June 7, 2011 @ 04:25 PM  

Hi Collin, can you give a link to where you found them?
I found this ad in the UK, http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_act_shop.product_pID_183587_lang_EN_country_GB.htm. I will call them tomorrow to discuss but do they look right to you?

Donald

[Edit by Donald on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 @ 04:25 PM]

Collin
Unregistered

Posted Tuesday, June 7, 2011 @ 04:42 PM  

Hi,

Yes, The piston and cylinders in the link are right.

Collin

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Saturday, July 9, 2011 @ 10:48 AM  

I plan to change my pistons and barrels soon but what break-in procedure is recommended? Guys in the hangar with Continentals tell me to use a straight oil and hammer the engine or I'll glaze the bores. A homebuilder friend who has put together two VW aero engines says to break it in gently, be watchful of CHT as I do it and let it cool down if it gets too hot. His recommendation is to have ground run it up to at least 2 minutes at full throttle before attempting to fly it since I'll need about that to get off and up to a safe height. What say?
Collin
Unregistered

Posted Sunday, July 10, 2011 @ 10:41 AM  

Hi Donald,

I would just fly it normal. Watch the temps. They brake-in quick. It may use a little oil, not like a Lycoming or Continental. I would not turn off the engine in flight for the first 10-15 hours. It takes 20-30 mph more to air start.

Take care

Collin

Jorgen
Unregistered

Posted Sunday, July 10, 2011 @ 12:20 PM  

Quote:
I would not turn off the engine in flight for the first 10-15 hours. It takes 20-30 mph more to air start.

Sound advice, Collin. Unless off course you plan a gliding landing (like today with XST )

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Monday, July 11, 2011 @ 04:07 AM  

Thank's Collin.

Not a lot different from the advice received from my homebuilder friend. His may be overly cautious because the VW's in his aircraft have to work pretty hard to keep flying whereas it seems to me that my Fournier allows mine an easy time of it. Even so, I expect I'll start cautious too and see if it gets overly hot. I think I may have a CHT gauge lying around somewhere.

Your engine-off advice seems sound to me.

Donald

Collin
Unregistered

Posted Monday, July 11, 2011 @ 08:08 PM  

Hi,

Here is Jon Karcy's recommendation for Mira's 1400cc engine he built.

Mira. Here are the instructions for "break In' of the 1385 Rectimo VW..#1, Procure 3 Qts. 30wt. Break in oil, Either Brad Penn,(prefered) or valvoline high zink 30wt racing oil. #2 Set Magnito timing at 28degrees total advance.#3 Spark plugs are to be removed and replaced with new plugs from magnito service #4 you will need intake manifold hoses, Fuel compatable. Sizes are in box ( unable to find in hawaii), Secure manifold to intake and engine case. #5 Install carburetor to manifold, Im confident Collin made the correct jetting for the increased displacment of the engine, you may want to check. #6 Re torque prop to crank hub nut to 80 ft lbs. Prop balance is extremely important as you know! Assuming everything is mounted properly. Start engine....Run and check for any irregularities. IE fuel / oil / vacuum leaks. check timing & carb adjustment. Run in time should be 1 hour or more, Shuting off and re-starting bringing up to tempreture each time Aprox 15 min intervals. #6 Let cool.. Remove valve covers, Remove rocker arms, Re-torque cylinder heads to 24 ft lbs working from the center outward ( a vw handbook will help with sequence.) Re-install rocker arms and torque to 16 ft lbs. Re-adjust valves to .004 th...Again a handbook will help in this area. Start and recheck all systems..#7 Drain oil and replace with 30wt valvoline racing. Time to fly...After a 1 hour flight let cool and re- adjust valves..Again check all systems... Have Fun! Aloha.. jon ....... ps.. What type of fuel are you using? Also if you have access to an oil cooler that will fit within the confines of your engine compartment it would certainly help. From photos it looks like a type 2 VW Oil Cooler might fit... Take care jk

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Tuesday, July 12, 2011 @ 02:33 AM  

Again, thank you Collin. Plenty food for thought.

Donald

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Friday, July 15, 2011 @ 07:11 AM  

Hi Donald,

The two minutes full-throttle ground run is an LAA requirement, and you might find it very revealing.
My Aussie engine started to falter after 1:30 due to collapsed intake rubbers, after they had been well heated and washed internally with part-vaporised fuel.

There is also futher info on airborne VWs on the LAA web site, and more on running them in in the PFA Handbook.

You have informed the LAA or BGA and received their advice, haven't you?

Yours, Bob

--------------------

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Friday, July 22, 2011 @ 02:21 AM  

The info in the PFA handbook is taken from the Don Peacock conversion instructions, which I also have, and that's pretty much what my homebuilder friend (a LAA inspector) says to do. At Husbands Bosworth last weekend Eugenio said to go hard on the engine, but presumably that comes after demonstration of 2 minutes full throttle and when in the air.
eugenio
Unregistered

Posted Friday, July 22, 2011 @ 04:02 PM  

I usually do some break-in on the ground with the engine on the aircraft or with a bench test. The test protocol I use is the following: start engine, 1500 RPM for 5', 2000 RPM for 5', 2500 RPM for 5', 1800 RPM for 15', 2500 RPM for 2', idle for 2', then shutoff and check for leaks or loosen parts.
After that, start and reach 2500 RPM, slow down and register idle and idle mixture, full throttle to see the max static RPM.
At this point if the engine is on the bench test I will repeat the test, or if it is on the aircraft I will test fly it for about one hour overhead the airfield running it not below 2000 RPM, usually 10' at 2500 RPM, 10' at 2000 RPM and so on.
What is very important is not to overheat the heads or let them cool too suddendly. I use the same oil I use on all my engines, a 20w60.

In any case do not baby your engine or you will glaze the cylinder walls.

Eugenio

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Friday, July 22, 2011 @ 04:27 PM  

Eugenio, thank you for the clarification.
It was good to meet you last weekend and I presume you and the rest of the Italians are safely home.

And for the rest of the forumites here, let me say that not only is Eugenio a source of knowledge on fourniers but he also cooks a great spaghetti!

Jorgen
Unregistered

Posted Friday, July 22, 2011 @ 06:21 PM  

Aah- la cucina italiana!

I seem to remember Jamie Oliver complaining that it was impossible to try to be an international chef cooking dishes in Italy since it meant competing with the cooking of everyones Mother- and there was just no way of winning!

I've heard about the risk of glazing cylinder walls, is that just during breaking in of the engine or could it happen if you "Baby" your engine later? (he asked worriedly after flying on 2200 rpm for the last 20 hours or so...)

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Saturday, July 23, 2011 @ 01:19 AM  

Jorgen, I think you're safe at 2200rpm with a broken-in engine. My understanding of the break-in of piston rings and barrels is this:

New barrels are honed to give a pattern of sharp 'scratches' in the bore. New rings are overly large and are sprung into the barrel but that deformation means that the curve of the ring cannot be exactly circular so contact with the barrel will not be continuous around the ring. During break-in the sharp honing of the bore will abrade the rings to conformity, much like a file, while at the same time that sharp honing will be dulled by the rings so the ability of the honing to wear the rings will quite quickly be lost and I think that dulling is what is referred to as 'glazing'. The honing will still be visible and able to hold an oil film but it will no longer be sharp and abrasive

By not babying the engine during break-in elevated cylinder pressure works behind the rings to press them outwards into close contact with the bores so that they have the best opportunity to make use of the limited abrasive life of the sharp honing. At the first oil change the old oil ought to glitter with metal particles from both the rings and the bores, the result of that abrasive wearing-in process. I'd expect subsequent changes to show some glitter too but to a decreasing degree as the hours build up.

In contrast, babying the engine will dull the honing before the rings are fully worn in so sealing between the rings and bores will be less than perfect resulting in blow-by, high crankcase pressure and oil loss. Blow-by is evidenced by staining of burnt oil on the piston skirts below the rings and that may be thought to be the 'glazing' spoken of, but I don't think it is. It's on the piston not the bore. It's a symptom not the ailment.

After break-in what you have is what you will run with until you renew the rings and hone the bores again.

That's how I understand it but any further insight or correction is welcome.

Donald

Jorgen
Unregistered

Posted Saturday, July 23, 2011 @ 10:41 AM  

Thanks Donald,
that's one of the best descriptions of the breaking-in process I've heard. I guess if you have OK compressions with no significant changes and oil consumption is negligable you don't really have to worry.

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

[Edit by Jorgen on Saturday, July 23, 2011 @ 10:43 AM]

Bob Grimstead
Unregistered

Posted Monday, July 25, 2011 @ 10:25 AM  

Hi Guys,

I could not agree more!

Donald has just said in a few short paragraphs all that can be said on breaking-in a new engine (or cylinders & rings).

Once that process is completed (evinced by a a steadying of the oil consumption at an acceptably low level -- in Lycomings and Continentals at least) and after perhaps 25-50 flying hours, you can drain and dump the oil, replace with new, top up with your additive of choice and fly however you like for 2,000 more carefree hours.

Have fun.

Yours, Bob

--------------------

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Monday, July 25, 2011 @ 06:02 PM  

Really? Damm! I was kind of expecting one or two contradictions or clarifications for these are really just a summation of my conclusions from a couple of things people told me and stuff I read on the web. It's not like I 'know' what I'm talking about.

However, while we're on the subject of replacing pistons and barrels I'll share a few things I've learned, concluded along the way.

The piston crowns are marked with an arrow which, on assembly, must point towards the flywheel end of the crankshaft. Odd, the pistons look symmetrical but it turns out the gudgeon pins (wrist pins) are not located through the piston centre but are offset. OK, I read that some pistons are like that but I wondered why. My guess is that it's so that the geometry of the opposing conn rods and pistons, or big ends and small ends, can never line up with the axes of the cylinders to 'straight-arm' the engine at TDC. If the pistons are at TDC the wrist pins, being offset, put the cranks slightly out of line with the cylinder bores so the articulated geometry can be more readily collapsed and folded into the next cycle. I imagine this could only ever be an issue at start up but it's a feature so it's there for a reason.

When assembling the pistons and barrels the first thing is to fit the rings and I'm not going to describe that. Follow the instructions, use proper tools. But the trick is to then fit the pistons into the barrels on the bench. Don't try to fit the piston to the crank on the engine then slide the barrel over. Do it on the bench where you have control, where you can easily verify the ring gap spacings and piston alignment, where you can use a piston ring compressor, where you can see what you're doing. When it comes time to fit the assembly to the engine, back the piston out the bottom of the barrel just far enough to slide the wrist pin in but not so far as to pop the oil control ring out the barrel. When it comes time to fit the wrist pin circlip, you've already fitted the one that won't be accessible, right, stuff the crankcase opening with clean rags, paper towels, whatever so that when you ping a circlip it doesn't vanish inside.

Enough. I only hope I've learned enough not to make a pigs ear of it.

[Edit by Donald on Monday, July 25, 2011 @ 06:08 PM]

Jorgen
Unregistered

Posted Monday, July 25, 2011 @ 06:34 PM  

Donald,
that makes a lot of sense too. When I had pulled the cylinders and was putting them back on I got some help from a car mechanic who did the famous "whacking-the-cylinder-over-the-piston" maneuver with the pistons attached to the rods. It looked real easy, but we had to modify the piston ring compressor to make it detachable so we could get it out afterwards. It is perhaps easier the way you describe it, and not that I remember right now but I seem to remember there were some other tricky fiddling as well...

May the 4's be with you/ Jörgen

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Tuesday, July 26, 2011 @ 04:08 AM  

Jorgen, when I ran across that tip a light bulb went on in my head.

You can get away with the piston-first-barrel-second method with a broken in engine but I very much doubt it would be successful with all new parts and, as you observe, a ring compressor cannot be removed after use without modification. Doing it on the bench there is no need to modify anything. No need to whack anything. It's just a push fit. Altogether a more benign method.

The one caution I would add is that the ring fitting instructions tell specifically to align the oil control ring gap with one end of the wrist pin and the other two rings 120° either side of that. Since the rings spin easily in the piston grooves but with difficulty inside the bore, to maintain that alignment relative to the piston the piston must be inserted into the barrel aligned as exactly as possible to it's final rotation. If you were to rely on spinning the piston into alignment with the wrist pin the rings would not follow and the oil control ring gap would not be in the right place.

Donald

eugenio
Unregistered

Posted Wednesday, July 27, 2011 @ 02:49 PM  

Not exactly Don, if you have the right tool you can remove it. I use a Hazet ring compressor whose steel band can be detached from one side and slipped away from the piston thru the studs, the only problem is that it cost about 200 euros .....
Usually on VW engines you can do as you say (piston into the barrel before the installation) I do the same, but there are engines (the old Stamo for example, a modification of the early 36hp) that have the oil scraper below the piston pin, so you must use this kind of tool.

The offset pin on pistons is for the geometry of the running engine, it is done so that when the piston pushes the force is as straight as possible with the crankshaft journal (piston - rod- journal) and to avoid the piston to force more on one skirt than the other. It is all written on the VW How to manuals.

About the rings, I usually put the oil scraper in the 12 0'clock and the two others 120° each other (4 o'clock and 8 o'clock) taking into account that in any case the rings moves into their seat and go wherever they want.

Another trick is to install first the rear cylinders in order to be able to easily install the circlips.

Donald
Unregistered

Posted Wednesday, July 27, 2011 @ 03:42 PM  

Eugenio, I wasn't aware of that Hazet tool. It looks very handy but over $200 is too rich for me, so I'll stick with my cheap one from the local car parts store. Fortunately I don't have a Stamo.

I would probably have put the oil control ring gap at the top like you except Mahle's instructions are quite specific about where the gap should go, so I'll stick with that even if the rings decide later to migrate the gap elsewhere. Your tip about installing rear cylinders first for ease of access to the circlips is noted and is perfectly obvious when stated. I might even have figured it out myself when I change the cylinders, but maybe I might not, so thank you for that one. Taking it a little further therefore on all the pistons the rear circlip can be fitted before offering up the piston and cylinder to the engine so that when working from the rear to the front the final circlips are always inserted on the forward, open side. That makes sense and should prevent a few cuss words.

Donald

Collin
Unregistered

Posted Wednesday, July 27, 2011 @ 06:18 PM  

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1298862
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1564654

eugenio
Unregistered

Posted Thursday, July 28, 2011 @ 03:16 PM  

Collin, this showed is like the one you sent me few years ago, is very handy, but works only on the 83 mm pistons. The one I have has a steel band and is possible to set diameters from 70 to 95, it is not a specific VW tool.

Eugenio

Collin
Unregistered

Posted Thursday, July 28, 2011 @ 05:00 PM  

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