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Collin
General
Gender: Male
Location: McMinnville. Oregon
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 711
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Posted Monday, April 4, 2011 @ 01:24 PM
Pilot Magazine May 2011 issue
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2029
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Posted Tuesday, April 5, 2011 @ 03:03 AM
Yup,
I'll send Collin a pdf when the magazine has gone off the shelves.
If you don't hear from me within a month, please remind me.
I sent the same article to Kitplanes nearly a year ago, but I didn't see it appear.
Yours, Bob
-------------------- Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583
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Posted Thursday, April 7, 2011 @ 05:00 PM
Ahaaaa....very interesting, is there a trade-in/up program
I want one!
Oh, no link yet, I guess I saw a special advance article some where,
I guess there will be a wait to get the link up here... Mums the word.
But, you will like what you see; A kit, lighter weight, higher climb rate, a few improvements, folding wings, different engine (even more fuel efficient) and glass panel for the most part.
The design parameters are basically the same but built lighter due to the newer lighter construction materials
available now.
Take a great design and make it better = even more WOW factor.
[Edit by jb92563 on Thursday, April 7, 2011 @ 05:10 PM]
-------------------- Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2029
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Posted Thursday, April 7, 2011 @ 11:03 PM
Hi Guys,
You may remember I mentioned this with a link to the French mag's article nearly a year ago (how time flies when you're flying Fourniers!) http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=rU83jira3E0jsxui9Dt5og17UE&forum=14&thread=577 Although the article's text is in French, of course all the numbers and specs are understandable, as are the photos.
I have just been told that Pilot's April issue has finished with sales, so I should be able to send Collin a pdf of my May Pilot article on the RF4UL in about a month.
Remind me if you haven't heard by then.
Yours, Bob
[Edit by Bob Grimstead on Thursday, April 7, 2011 @ 11:03 PM]
-------------------- Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
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Collin
General
Gender: Male
Location: McMinnville. Oregon
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 711
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Posted Tuesday, September 13, 2011 @ 05:27 PM
http://www.cfiamerica.com/images/pdf/fournier_ul.pdf
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Donald
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Scotland
Registered: Jan 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 489
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Posted Wednesday, September 14, 2011 @ 02:42 AM
Thanks for posting that article. Almost makes me want to clear out the garage and set to.
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583
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Posted Wednesday, September 14, 2011 @ 10:58 AM
Wow, this new version has some great features.
I don't particularly like the folding wing as to me it seems like a potential failure point with catastrophic results, unless it is extremely over engineered and double idiot proofed.
I'd have rather seen each wing semi-span or tips unplug like a conventional glider and like the Twister but realize that the extra structure to achieve that may have resulted in the weight targets being exceeded.
Call me paranoid but in an aerobatic aircraft Murphy's laws apply more often than usual.
I think non-folding should be an option though for those that are paranoid and have adequate hanger space.
It will also be interesting to see how the new engine works out in terms of performance and reliability.
I think reliability and good performance will ultimately lead to great success with this model.
In the US it will fit into the Light Sport designation quite nicely and make it readily accessible for the most pilots.
It would be great if a 2 seater aerobatic kit would also be developed in the future.
If all the features of the RF4D and UL models could be rolled up into a similar performing but 2 seat model then that would be the ultimate
aircraft for me and many others, and I would likely buy one immediately.
The 2nd seat would allow you to share your passion and gives you the cargo space for longer adventures, plus doing aerobatics with just one will give you the extra strength margin and performance boost. Best combination of features in my opinion.
[Edit by jb92563 on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 @ 11:13 AM]
-------------------- Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2029
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Posted Wednesday, September 14, 2011 @ 01:08 PM
Hi Guys,
Yes, but all they have to do is get the prototype flying to get the ball rolling.
We were originally told that would happen before the end of 2010 but, despite queries from me, I have heard nothing to date (late Sept 2011).
No surprise really, these are older guys, and not known for hurrying.
Maybe next year?
Yours, Bob
-------------------- Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
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dannparks
Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Parkside Airpark, Battle Ground, WA
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
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Posted Wednesday, September 14, 2011 @ 01:56 PM
An interesting project, but I wonder if wood is really the best material for a realistic kit "product". It seems massively labor intensive for the builder or manufacturer -- which will make it too much to build or too expensive to buy. It would seem to me like a lightweight carbon composite kit based on the RF4 concept of "big wing, low power, and efficiency" would be a more viable kit/product -- if the weight can be kept at or below the wood version.
Would Rene (and Sportavia) have used wood if exotic composites had been available?
-------------------- Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2029
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Posted Wednesday, September 14, 2011 @ 02:32 PM
These guys are doing it.
You don't like the way they're doing it, do it yourself another way.
I suggest the guys who achieve things 'do' rather than criticizing.
Yours, Bob
-------------------- Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583
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Posted Wednesday, September 14, 2011 @ 03:43 PM
We all know that an aircraft is a multitude of compromises, and you just pick one that suits your desires and Do It!
It sure is nice to have options though.
I think that what ever they turn out will be most excellent in any case.
Bob Kunkendal (surely mis-spelled, sorry) has been developing a modern Glass kit for his HP24 glider project.
Its been over 5 years and he spends a lot of time on it weekly and it is still not quite complete.
However he will have molds and jigs when he is done so making copies will go much faster.
I think the wood construction route saves a lot of time up front and gets the design flying, tested and improved a lot quicker.
Its a big task no matter what route you choose, but major kudos to those that would even attempt such a bold venture.
Looks like EASA (mis spelled also probably) has European fliers rather more motivated, and its bringing out their hidden talents.
-------------------- Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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dannparks
Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Parkside Airpark, Battle Ground, WA
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
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Posted Wednesday, September 14, 2011 @ 04:52 PM
Not meant as criticism... Just an observation and point of conversation about high-tech vs. tried-and-true construction and manufacturing. For a few guys building one or two proof-of-concept models, wood is the way to go. The price of creating tooling and molds to do super-light composites is way beyond a small start-up operation. It will be interesting to see how they move from a successful prototype to a "product".
I think the project is great and I am sure they will create an excellent machine that will bring much deserved notoriety to a fabulous aircraft.
-------------------- Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
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Donald
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Scotland
Registered: Jan 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 489
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Posted Thursday, September 15, 2011 @ 07:55 AM
Just been looking at that again and am I right in thinking that the ailerons have yet to be cut from the outer wing panels?
I guess the engine will be a Briggs and Stratton, similar to that used in Michel Colomban's Luciole.
I want one.
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jb92563
Second Lieutenant
Gender: Male
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 583
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Posted Thursday, September 15, 2011 @ 10:07 AM
Just speculating Donald but I think the engine will be something akin to the Big V Twin http://www.culverprops.com/big-twin.php
but with less displacement.
I think going with a proven and reliable engine will be the key to success. Although 25hp+ seems rather weak but I suppose that they needed the right weight engine to balance the airframe. I guess we will wait an see what they choose.
Dan, check out this small time operation (1-2 people) that have made molds and tooling for the HP24 glider kit project
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/ 10 years in the making though....and nearly at the finish line.
-------------------- Ray
RF4D #4057 N-1771 Rectimo 1400cc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jb92563/FournierRF4D
http://www.touringmotorgliders.org
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Donald
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Scotland
Registered: Jan 2007
Status: Offline
Posts: 489
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Posted Thursday, September 15, 2011 @ 10:34 AM
Well I was sort of speculating too but Bob does say it's a manufacturer with a double-barrelled name and, reading more closely, he also makes mention of the Luciole. Bob also uses words like 'probably' and 'initially' with reference to the engine so I guess it's up for grabs right now.
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Collin
General
Gender: Male
Location: McMinnville. Oregon
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 711
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Posted Thursday, September 15, 2011 @ 12:22 PM
Hi,
I think an opposed (boxer) engine is best for looks (keeping nice cowling lines) and being smooth. I looked at some BMW motorcycle engines with a gear boxes but they are a little heavy. I would still think a VW engine with no accessories and niksel cylinders should still could be considered.
Collin
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dannparks
Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Parkside Airpark, Battle Ground, WA
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
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Posted Thursday, September 15, 2011 @ 05:03 PM
The HP-24 looks like a outstanding project as well. On both these projects it's great to see real craftsmen making a long-term commitment to doing it right (not necessarily fast).
-------------------- Dann Parks • RF4D #4051 N2188 • now flying!
Pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111628310900713778468/RF4D_N2188?noredirect=1
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2029
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Posted Friday, September 16, 2011 @ 12:29 PM
The prototype's engine is a Briggs & Stratton Vanguard, but modified with a higher compression ratio and a few other things -- pretty much identical to the Luciole's set-up.
For reasons only known to themselves, they did not want me to say in writing what engine they were using, but the prototype was at the Gap-Tallard meet for all to see, with the engine on a nice stand. I think they even ran it while I was flying an aerobatic display for Rene, so I didn't get to see or hear it running.
I do have serious concerns, the main one being that the guy making the kits is the same guy who took three years to send the 1:20th model I saw and paid for in cash at the first Gap-Tallard get-together. I wrote and e-mailed him every month for over two years, but he only dispatchd my model after Brian and a couple of other guys went around to his home to apply pressure.
This guy was once a violin-maker, but became a maker of exquisite model airplanes, of which RF4s were one.
However it seems he soon gets bored and wants to go on to the next model rather than finishing what he's supposed to be doing.
I expect that the same will happen with their 'kits' which he is eventually supposed to be producing at the rate of one per month.
I honestly don't hold out any hope of this project ever getting going seriously, lovely idea though it undoubtedly is.
The completed but uncovered airframe was at Gap-Tallard two years ago, and supposed to have been flying nearly a year ago, but despite my queries I've heard nothing.
What the project needs is a keen young guy with lots of money and enthusiasm, just as Count Tony d'Assche was when he appeared on the scene for Rene all those years ago.
Any volunteers?
Yours, Bob
-------------------- Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
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chucknugent
Corporal
Gender: Male
Location: Portland, Oregon
Registered: May 2009
Status: Offline
Posts: 20
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Posted Saturday, October 8, 2011 @ 11:48 PM
So when do we start a SLSA RF5UL . Dacron fabric, HKS, or Jabru engine, composite tail and outer wing panels, Mgl EFIS,com,and transponder, RF5C fixed gear . It can take its rightful place as the low cost flight trainer/ touring motorglider for the 21th century
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2029
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Posted Thursday, February 2, 2012 @ 08:55 PM
Hiya Folks,
I am delighted to say that I have had an update on the Fournier RF4-UL project from Jean Michel Daubagna, a primary guiding force in this project.
This is what he says...
Hello Bob
Some news from our RF4-UL which is almost finished at 75% and for the moment we are very happy with the actual weight and projected final weight with a good margin.
We hope to fly towards the end of this year because we trust more than ever in the project and the truth of the concept, and plan to make a great feast in spring 2013 around René Fournier in Gap-Tallard.
The project has been delayed due to money because as you know money is the sinews of war and I am alone to support the project.
And in the team our age is not a problem because we are not so old and the great knowledge of more than 40/50 years from each of us is an advantage and a trump.
In aerobatics, actual champions are quite young, but I see that pilots in their 60s are flying in a wonderful manner in our very own 'magic carpets'.
I send you a card I've made for René and his next book
Yours,Sincerely
Jean Michel
-------------------- Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2029
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Posted Wednesday, January 22, 2014 @ 08:44 AM
Hello again Everybody,
Two years on, and I have had another brief e-mail chat with Jean Michel Daubagna about the RF4UL
He says:
Concerning the RF-4 UL I dream evey morning of that bird but for the moment it's sleeping ; hoping that a very good and close friend will have time to work on it and finish the work.
Its a matter of 5 to 6 month before we begin again.
The engine is turning on a test bench and we have validated the Duc carbon propeller and reduction system.
A very good friend in Cognac is also working on an almost same project but using his original RF-3 fuselage, with folding wings like our RF-4 UL but with RF-3 ailerons and a Beringer wheel.
It will have the same engine and instrument panel, very light, based on an MGL Xtreme instrument which I also have on my Tetras ultralight.
Wonderful instrument very light cheap and reliable.
We are hoping to fly our RF4UL at the end of this year.
So now everybody knows how this project is progressing.
All such projects need three things in huge quantities:
Money, manpower & enthusiasm.
I have the same three problems with my RF4's 'quick re-cover & respray'.
Yours, Bob
-------------------- Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
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Martin Hill
Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: UK
Registered: Apr 2010
Status: Offline
Posts: 35
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Posted Saturday, February 1, 2014 @ 07:56 PM
As he seems to modest to mention it there is an excellent article in the March edition of Pilot about flying an RF4D to Sweden and Norway by our very own Captain Bob.
It makes one want to - fly!
I spent a year working in Sweden and always promised to go back. So to go in my 10 year old Swedish car or 40 year old Fournier is the question.
Clearly the latter is possible and maybe a more interesting way to go, making sure to dodge the Falkes!
-------------------- RF5 #5107 G-BEVO
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Collin
General
Gender: Male
Location: McMinnville. Oregon
Registered: Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 711
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Posted Monday, February 26, 2018 @ 02:41 PM
Hello,
Is there any progress update is the RF4UL?
Collin
-------------------- Collin Gyenes
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Bob Grimstead
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Perth, Western Australia or West Sussex, England
Registered: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Posts: 2029
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Posted Monday, February 26, 2018 @ 04:26 PM
Unfortunately not Collin,
The last I heard was several years ago.
The guys involved in this project are quite old, and only one of them is providing all the money. He was finding it difficult to fund the project and the guy doing the woodwork is pretty unreliable.
I don't think they have even covered it with fabric, so there has been little progress since the last Gap-Tallard meeting.
Such a shame, because it promised to be a great little aeroplane.
Yours, Bob
-------------------- Flying and displaying Fournier RF4Ds VH-HDO and G-AWGN, building replica RF6B G-RFGB and custodian of RF6B prototype F-BPXV
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